Tuesday, July 31, 2012
Support for the hard workers on the TA Facebook
I'm not a member of the TA Facebook because of its rules against secret identities, so I can't post there, but let me state emphatically here that I support the posters who are voicing concerns over the problems in PCVST and exposing these problems through photos and internet detective work. There are a couple of posters on that Facebook, however, who are adamantly trying to dissuade these hard workers and proving themselves to be remarkably oppositional. It's almost as if they were set up by the powers that be, have some relationship with them (like friendship with Lady Maya), or are just plain naive about some of the significant problems occurring in this complex. I am certain that these couple of posters have made similar comments here and are still trying to make them, though at this point I head them off at the pass and will not allow such purposeful provocation. The purpose of this provocation, whether here or at the TA Facebook, is to dampen the spirit of those who are trying to do something and confuse, and therefore nullify, the serious discussions (and presentation of evidence!) taking place. Please don't fall for this. And ram on.
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Question for anyone that may be able to help. I know the leasing and management offices don't tend to negotiate anything but has anyone been able to renew a lease for 6 months? I have been living in Stuytown for the last 6 years and want to renew but only for 6 months. I will reach out to someone there but want to see if anyone has had any luck with any types of negotiations with them. Thanks!
Thank you STR!!!!
I agree with you. There are two or three, maybe even more, who work long hours each day to expose illegal hotels and horrific conditions throughout the premises. Their hard work has helped bring the attention of these deplorable conditions and illegal activities to management and even the mainstream media, such as the NY Times. Yet two members of the TA FB page continue to deny the existence of the overwhelming evidence, and repeatedly single out and attack those tenants who are working so hard to put an end to illegal behavior and deplorable conditions throughout the premises. I hope John Marsh bans those
two members who are actually working at
cross purposes with the TA's intentions.
>>I know the leasing and management offices don't tend to negotiate anything but has anyone been able to renew a lease for 6 months?<<
I never heard of a 6 month lease renewal here.
You really think asking people not to say, make fun of people's eyebrows, is working to stop someone from posting about conditions at Stuytown? Seriously, please address that exact point. You think people you agree with should be free and unfettered to call a gay man a cupcake because he says something less than intelligent on the FB page? But those that you don't should be stopped from asking people to stick with the point and not make fun of people's appearance in retort to a point they don't agree with? That asking that to stop is working to undermine the important information about the condition itself?
More than two people have asked certain posters to stop with the personal insults--I am one of those others and you've jumped down my throat as well. Why are you going out of your way to target and harass people who disagree with you? That's dangerous business and can undermine so much of your hard work otherwise, not to mention really put yourself at personal risk of legal and other responses, eviction, criminal charges, federal communications fines, etc. Thinking you're right has nothing to do with it. Thinking you're anonymous is also illusory. The feds can surely find anyone if asked to do so under warrant or even informally.
Yes, I got the same rude argumentative comments from C.Z when I was on the TAFB page, when I was simply trying to find out information about the Roberts Case and the TA's plan to buy. (and no I'm not MBaaar)
M.F is new so was not a member then, but I'm sure she would of been just as rude.
The other gals are doing a great job, hope they keep up the good work.
It's worth noting that one of the two people hurling baseless accusations on the TA's Facebook page yesterday works in the food industry. When the TA and DG were looking into the zoning laws regarding the greenmarket and other commercial activities on the Oval she was outraged and was very vocal about it. She has an ax to grind.
I fully support the Facebook activists and thank them, and you STR, for the tireless work in keeping us informed on what's really taking place under our noses.
I’ve read the recent mockery on the TA Facebook page. When pictures of trash or illegal hotels are posted on the TA Facebook page, what happens next? What is the result of their long hours of work? Is someone from the TA taking action?
Interesting snippet from the TA facebook page
http://www.hotrealestatenyc.com/future_of_stuyvesant-town/
I asked once for a 3 month extension. they said fine but the rate was like 4 times my rent. which was high enough.
Do these people volunteer for the TA? They do it willingly, no one is making them do their work.
The sad...and very naive...thing about many of the people who think that taking an ownership stake in ST/PCV is the magic cure-all...is that far from correcting much of the damage already done to the complex...is the issue of who's going to pay for it.
Just yesterday, I was talking to a long-time resident who asked me how much their 1BR unit might cost in a possible conversion. I said possibly 250k+...and she nearly fell over...as she was thinking more like 100k. And that's the problem...for many long term residents (many of whom never even paid to rewire for AC)...these numbers would just not be acceptable. Therefore, the only alternative in any conversion would be to keep the hot-sheet, flophouse/college dorm, market rate revolving door spinning...just to subsidize the not insignificant costs of running this place (which would suddenly be shouldered by the new owners).
And if you thought endless brickpointing, roof repairs and plumbing issues were annoying before...just wait until you're being assessed directly to pay for them.
Tragically, I think that too many units have already been flipped out of the old-style RS system to make any future conversion workable. The financial crack in the form of continued apartment turnovers, would just be too hard to resist when staring down the barrel of a multi-billion-dollar mortgage...which would suddenly be perched on the backs of the new "owners."
Sometimes you just have to read the writing on the wall...it was fun for 60 years...but you just can't turn back that clock (unless it's at a significantly distressed fire sale price to make it economically feasible going forward...and I just don't see that happening in NYC).
It's only two people voicing opposition and one of them is mad at the Tenants Association over the greenmarket. Her job has something to do with food and I wouldn't be surprised if she was associated with GrownNYC or Stuy Town itself. The other one, she's a simpleton who doesn't care about what others on the property have to deal with. Neither or them ever have anything to add to the conversation and are rather hysterical when they do pop up.
Bravo Facebook Activists! Keep up the good work!!!
I agree with your support of those TA Facebook people. Thank goodness some people are interested in safety, security and quality of life.
I appreciate all the info I get from your blog and the TA page. I think the TA should have let you continue posting. It's obvious why you can't reveal your identity but your input is important.
>>You think people you agree with should be free and unfettered to call a gay man a cupcake because he says something less than intelligent on the FB page?<<
That was my one objection and I voiced it as "Lamont Cranston" when I was a Facebook TA member.
@Carolyn - your irrational focus on some "eyebrows" comment is simply another one of your transparent attempts to obfuscate the real, more serious issues. Why do you keep trying to sabotage the efforts of those who are working so hard to improve the quality of life here? It makes no sense!!! Despite your efforts to silence them, those tenants who you keep criticizing have made enormous strides in making ST and PCV a safer place for all of us. Hats off to them! You really need to show more gratitude, Carolyn. When was the last time YOUR efforts made The New York TImes?
I wish Alice never made the cupcake comment because we will never hear the end of it and carrying on and on and on about it is a distraction from the work taking place on the page. Drop it already Carolyn.
Oh, I see. It's wrong to use the term "cupcake," but it's okay for Carolyn and her BFF, Mary, to spread lies and ridiculous accusations about other members, and refuse to back-up those claims with any actual proof. Once again, Carolyn has checked her logic at the door.
@Carolyn - yeah, right, the feds are going to press criminal charges for a comment about eyebrows on a FB page. Thank goodness you no longer practice law!!!!
"I’ve read the recent mockery on the TA Facebook page. When pictures of trash or illegal hotels are posted on the TA Facebook page, what happens next? What is the result of their long hours of work? Is someone from the TA taking action?"
The question should be are Rose and CW taking action. If anyone is taking action, they're certainly not announcing it. The TA cares because the people on the board live here too. Rose and CW people do not. It's a great idea to bring these things into the open and the TA page is the vehicle. Thank goodness! Would you like the garbage in your building? Would you like an illegal hotel next door to you? Would you feel comfortable with your children coming home alone to a building with a parade of strangers coming in and out? Would you feel safe? Management is responsible for the mismanagement. The TA does't have to fix Rose's mess but they're probably more likely to do something because they care.
I followed that heated thread yesterday and though I don't always agree with the Facebook activists, as they're refered to, I also found the conversation frustrating.
Day after day we see proof of illegal hotels, garbage over flowing in the recycling rooms, and now, a new Flickr page with heinous photos of what's taking place in Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village. Mary's simplistic and dare I say juvenile responce is that she never sees it in her building and believes it's an isolated incident. In my book, that not the attitude we need to be taking. We need to pull together as a comminuty and not turn a blind eye to a problem beccause it may not directly effect one of us.
Those of us who have lived here for a few years know these incidents are not isolated and they effect many of us, even those of us who typically stay quiet online but read what's taking place.
Lux Living did a fantastic job of exposing the problems we faced and when the media caught wind, the exposure shamed Rose into taking action. The only way anything changes around here is shaming Rose and CWCapital. Otherwise they take baby steps, change guard every two years and give us a new talking head who says he'll make things better. That's not good enough.
I might not always agree with what's being said on the TA board but I also don't always agree with what I read in the newspaper or see on TV. But that doesn't give anyone the right to make false accusations about our neighbors, question whether they live here or not because they choose to use a pretty painting as their avatar in place of a self portrait. Being of a particular age, I'm camera shy myself. It's even more appauling that a joke about someones eyebrows is deemed more important to some than the sad state of our community. To them I say grow up and let these people march forward with their activism.
Thank you for letting me speak.
I agree with you, STR. I think the TA commenters are doing a great job of highlighting the QOL issues and the complete disregard Rose and CW Capital have for all ST/PCV residents, long-term and more recent. Sometimes I wish they wouldn't go on the offensive so quickly, or so hard, because it turns people off. But overall, they are doing and saying things that not all of us have the courage to do so publicly, but do agree with. Thank you for recognizing them.
With HDFC unit in co-ops with income restrictions selling for $500 per square foot, expecting to be able to buy a 1 BR unit for $100k seems unlikely. 600 sq feet at $500 psf is $300k. Assuming 96% financing and 3.5% interest rates for 30 years, that's about $1300 a month .. plus whatever common charges get layered on top.
There's no way this is a good deal for somebody paying $1200 a month. Of course, that doesn't mean it's somehow unfair or unjust. It's simply where things are in the city these days. And, that sort of per square foot cost is very low - even for the outer boros.
If you're talking about 11:11, I'M NOT CAROLYN!!!! You people are obsessed with her. But I read and commented as well on other insults. Please, just stop insulting. Why are you doing it? You aren't actually answering that question. Just post on the issues and don't call people who disagree with you gay slurs or whatever.
Gutterman was the only one to quote a price PSF and it was not $500.00 it was $315.00 plus the talk from Maurice on the TAFB page of apt selling to insiders for $600,000.00 is nuts, the price quoted on this thread of $250,000.00 is hopefully going to be a lot more accurate. And hopefully the TA/Brookfield, will place their bid to buy late summer as they stated, so we should have some idea in about a month on what that is going to be.
Given the high cost of maintaining this place, I suspect that monthly maintenance charges would be much higher than the rents of many of the "old" RS tenants. And that doesn't include mortgage payments.
"I’ve read the recent mockery on the TA Facebook page. When pictures of trash or illegal hotels are posted on the TA Facebook page, what happens next? What is the result of their long hours of work? Is someone from the TA taking action?"
“The question should be are Rose and CW taking action. If anyone is taking action, they're certainly not announcing it. The TA cares because the people on the board live here too. Rose and CW people do not. It's a great idea to bring these things into the open and the TA page is the vehicle. Thank goodness! Would you like the garbage in your building? Would you like an illegal hotel next door to you? Would you feel comfortable with your children coming home alone to a building with a parade of strangers coming in and out? Would you feel safe? Management is responsible for the mismanagement. The TA does't have to fix Rose's mess but they're probably more likely to do something because they care.”
OK – is Rose and CW taking action because of the pictures of trash or illegal hotels posted on the TA Facebook page?
“The question should be are Rose and CW taking action. If anyone is taking action, they're certainly not announcing it. The TA cares because the people on the board live here too. Rose and CW people do not. It's a great idea to bring these things into the open and the TA page is the vehicle. Thank goodness! Would you like the garbage in your building? Would you like an illegal hotel next door to you? Would you feel comfortable with your children coming home alone to a building with a parade of strangers coming in and out? Would you feel safe? Management is responsible for the mismanagement. The TA does't have to fix Rose's mess but they're probably more likely to do something because they care.”
Does Management read the TA Facebook page? How do we know these posts are changing the quality of life?
"Yes, I got the same rude argumentative comments from C.Z when I was on the TAFB page, when I was simply trying to find out information about the Roberts Case and the TA's plan to buy. (and no I'm not MBaaar)"
Oh, good. Phoney baloney Jill is back--replete with her phoney baloney soccer mom photo.
I don't know who you are, mbaar or otherwise, but I do know that you are not who you claim to be. And I think that's all we need to know here.
"Does Management read the TA Facebook page? How do we know these posts are changing the quality of life?"
Management does in fact read the blogs and TA FB page. They know that a lot of the articles come from the issues brought up here. If they were smart they'd show some leadership and nip them in the bud but they are not smart and lack leadership. They reap what they sow. They look foolish and incompetent.
@ Anonymous July 31, 2012 7:39 PM
You can not really be that thick, or are you simply C.Z.
First off yes, that is not my photo or my name, I did the same thing al lot of people do, including STR who was Lamont Cranston on the TAFB and Peter Stuyvesant, the TA's very own sock puppet, and as you yourself are doing by posting as "Anonymous"
Check out this post on the TA's Facebook page from this poor woman, Allison Poole El-Gamal.
"I am currently in the management office trying to get my visiting mother's key card activated for ramp access and donalda habersham is making her fax in her disability form from nc. I am 38 weeks pregnant and due any second. I have a 2 year old and my mother might need to take her out in the stroller if I go into labor. I feel this is incredibly discriminatory. What can I do?"
I, and other people I know, have had BIG problems over the years with Donalda Habersham. Should tenants ever gain control of this place, she is the first person that I am going to demand be removed from her job. I don't know anyone who has a good word to say about her and her crappy, high-handed attitude. Look what she is putting this poor, pregnant woman through! DISGUSTING. INHUMANE.
Folks who are thinking they may be able to buy a 1BR in ST for 100K-250K are dreaming. This whole deal was locked down months ago between CW, Brookfield & Garodnick. When Roberts is settled in about a year or so, things will happen very quickly. Meantime, STPCV is being groomed to attract people with more money. The price per square foot will be closer to $500. So a 1BR condo in ST will be around 377K. Maybe 25% will be able to buy. And Garodnick is probably trying to figure right now how to spin this so that it can be sold as a political win.
Habersham is the worst. If you call her about serious problems with neighbors, she does absolutely nothing. Even after we reported our student neighbors throwing disruptive parties and security even validated that, she refused to do any follow-up. AND she blamed us for "provoking" the disruptive neighbors by complaining! She really needs to be fired! An incompetent jerk.
Yes, "Jill," but the difference is we are posting anonymously and we are all being honest about that. You are pretending to be someone that you are NOT.
You got away with it for a while but you have been outed.
Give it up.
It's spelled Donalda HaberSHAM ;)
As a result of comments here I looked at the TA facebook page. Wow...what happened to the civil conversation they like to brag about? On the other hand, some important points are finally coming up. Some people there are beginning to see that saying that you're willing to pay up to $600 psf makes no sense. And that the TA has done nobody any favors by supporting Brookfield. And since Garodnick has already implied that the price of $315 psf is too good to be true, you can get ready to swallow a much bigger price from Brookfield. And that there are serious divisions among us according to our pocketbooks.
Donna must follow the rules. Radu must follow the rules. All Rose employees must follow the rules.
Without rules there is only anarchy.
This place is a joke. Only it's so pathetic you can't even laugh.
Do the people who want this place to go co-op or condo at $600 per square foot really think that the older people in the non-renovated, TRUE rent stabilized apartments are going to be interested? What are they going to do about those pesky folk? Terrorize and bully them out? Oldsters, lawyer up before the bloodsuckers get their teeth into you.
Some people know they have slim chance of buying if the price is not low. Some who have been here for many years are saying they've saved up and they're ready to buy. Other people who are on the cusp are saying they're paying a lot in rent already & expect to pay upwards of $400 psf. They're ready to buy. Some FMRTs are saying they're already stretched and cannot make monthly payments far in excess of what they pay now. You all have one thing in common. If Brookfield wins (as now seems all but inevitable), the prices will be so high, you won't be able to buy. If the current market value of your 2BR in ST is about $700k, the discount will bring you to 550K-600K with closing costs. There will be a lot of rude awakenings when you finally see what the real bottom line is.
There is NO WAY this place will ever go coop or condo. Old time rent stabilized tenants who are paying in the $1200-1800 range would be fools to buy. Their monthly costs would double and possibly triple. Plus the TA has no money to bid! The whole thing is a sham. The TA has perhaps at best a 5% membership. They represent noone. They couldn't even get a quorum for their "election". Garodnick is busy taking funds from real estate interests so he can run for Comptroller...ain't gonna happy Danny Boy. Old time rent stabilzed tenants should enjoy their low rents. College kids and market raters should party hearty and smile while they get reamed by Rose&Company. Gee, I wish I could pay $4400 for a lousy two bedroom with pressurized fake walls. Haha!
Just sit back and enjoy the show folks.
There ain't gonna be no conversion. Trust me on that folks. You can take it to the bank.
I totally agree with Hippo. I am a long term tenant and no way would I sink mt life's savings into this place and then have major maintenance costs as well. Danny Boy will not be getting my vote.
Right now about 40% of the STPCV population is FMRT. That's a fact. As CW pushes all these up to legal rents, some of the FMRTs marginally able to make their currents rents may get pushed out and replaced by more affluent tenants. The grounds are being upgraded to appeal to more affluent tenants. You're kidding yourself if you think that in 1-2 yrs there won't be enough people here willing to buy in at high rates and meet the minimum legal requirement of 15% participation and higher. The timing of all this (wrapping up Roberts, improving the grounds, Brookfield's eventual bid announcement)...all of this is being orchestrated behind the scenes to optimize sales prices at participation levels Brookfield likes. The TA has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. Unless something truly unexpected and out of the hands of the manipulators occurs, in 1-2 years there will definitely be a sale.
So what will happen, Hippo? You really don't know what you're talking about. The property is currently in foreclosure and will sell because the bondholders want their money. And selling it for condo or coop conversion is the only way they're going to all or most of their money back.
Hippo, I'm paying just under $1,200.00 a month and would gladly buy if the price was right. I have grown Children and I have Grandchildren and I would love to be able to leave them something of value. As the T.A have said, they are going to have a 2 tier pricing level, as neither price has been announced there is no point speculating until it is, but after living here for 40 years and paying a reasonable rent, it has given me the chance to save for 40 years for the day we have a chance to buy. Of course if they screw it up and make the cost to high then the conversion will not work, but I think that they know enough not to do that. I have great faith in the T.A doing the right thing.
>>If the current market value of your 2BR in ST is about $700k, the discount will bring you to 550K-600K with closing costs.<<
Not to mention a few other "minor" additions:
Plus mortgage interest...
Plus maintenance...
Plus owner's insurance...
Plus utilities...
Plus real estate taxes...
Plus parking (if you have a car)...
Plus direct assessments for repairs...
Plus storage (if you have a U-Haul bin or three)...
Did I forget anything?
And really, I'm not trying to be a party pooper...but why would you cough up money like this to live HERE? You literally could go to other areas of Manhattan for the same or possibly less...and maybe get a doorman thrown in!
Strongly suggest you go to the TA facebook page and look at the recent comments by Dave Hensley and Maurice Michaane (before they're deleted). These combined give you a good picture of what is really going on regarding conversion that the rest of the TA chooses to ignore.
That's a strong opinion, Hippo. If you're basing your assumption on the fact that people paying $1200-$1800 in rent aren't going to buy, it's not much of an argument, though. Those renters are becoming fewer and fewer every year in STPCV. And all you need for a conversion is 15% buy-in. That will happen easily.
Even with a conversion with a 15% buy-in requirement, you can't evict the senior citizens. You are just going to have to wait for us to die. I'm not a senior citizen yet, but I probably will be by the time this mess gets sorted out. And I have no intention of moving out!
Keep in mind:
CW has a limited amount of time to deal with the property--until 2014, about the same time the RS law expires.
CW can pretty up ST all they want, but even the 3BRs have only one bathroom--not exactly luxury and not enough room for 2 sinks.
The RS laws expire in 2014. Some people, even those paying low rent, might feel safer buying than taking a chance that the laws won't be renewed.
If buying is a bad deal for us insiders, why will it be any more appealing to outsiders? Developers with unrealistic ideas of what their properties can fetch are not unknown to make the properties rental instead of coop or condo.
In some universe, preferably ours, the numbers will have to work. My opinion is that the price should reflect what the property is worth. All those people and institutions that invested took a risk. Just because their risk didn't pay off doesn't mean we should make them whole.
I never cease to be amazed at people who think the TA knows what it's doing. Or think that the TA is in the driver's seat in any way. Yes, the TA has fought for QoL issues and yes, the TA has supported rent stabilization diligently. But on this issue of conversion is totally different. This is the world of high stakes real estate, totally out of the TA's expertise. Use your common sense. The TA has no money in this game. Brookfield and its lenders and investors will. Big money. What in God's name do they care about the TA's 2-cents? Nothing! They're only using the TA to sell themselves to the community. So guess what. When you finally get to hear Brookfield's prices, the only thing the TA will be able to say to all the disappointed faces will be..."well, we really tried, but due to circumstances this is really the best anyone could do." The last thing Brookfield wants is a bunch of us demonstrating & giving them a black eye in the press. So the function of the TA in that relationship becomes to help put all of us to sleep.
Did someone die in the Oval? It sounded like two cats tied at their tails and then thrown over a clothes line.
I know, it was some kind of a Lady Maya event. Just loud enough to annoy.
No thanks. Over Maurice.
I am pleased that my original post generated such diverse points of view. I hold to my original statement that it is financial lunacy for someone paying $1200-1800 to double or even triple their monthly "nut" for...what? To live in a college dorm with a drastically reduced quality of life?
Indeed one of the many Anonymous posters said only 15% is required for a non-eviction conversion. That is fact. But that doesn't mean people will buy. Let's say in two years the balance between the old rent-stabilized tenants and the "new" rent-stabilzed tenants ( who because of Rose&Company and CW Capital's unconscionable "churning" of the apartments pay over three grand for a one-bedroom and four grand for a two )is about 50-50. To my way of thinking the vast majority of the old timers won't or can't buy and if half the new folks buy that means Stuy Town will be 75% rental still. The burden of skyrocketing maintainance will fall on these people not the old time renters who will be sitting pretty. Furthermore I believe Bloomberg and the real estate interests will NEVER let this place go condo or coop. So I reiterate all this jabbering about condo or coop conversion is just that...talk. The TA has NO money and NO funding. But, hey, it's just this one man's opinion. All are respectfully invited to agree or disagree. Still a free country isn't it? I'm going to go have a 16 1/2 ounce soda now before I go to bed. Hey, what's that? The cops are knocking on my door?! HELP!
Anon 1:12, you are clueless. After Labor Day, I suggest folks like you go to as many condo/coop open houses as possible to get a sense of what the market is. It will be a real eye-opener.
"Plus the TA has no money to bid! The whole thing is a sham."
Huh? I wasn't aware that the TA was the entity buying the property, I thought it was Brookfield. Come on now Hippo!!!!!
No one has ever said anything about evicting senior citizens. Quite the opposite, actually. If you don't want to buy, then don't, and you're standing as a rent stabilized tenant will not change. End of story. And the conversion still happens, regardless.
You're alright with your 16 oz soda for now. Herr bloomturd is busy making sure new mothers are breast-feeding. He's given the city away to his rich developer and real estate pals, he's banned smoking in the park, dictated what we can and cannot eat and destroyed the public school system. Now he is giving the slammers to his fellow crooks at Goldman Sucks for them to turn a profit on. He doesn't riff raff native New Yorkers like us having homes in Manhattan. This island is strictly for tourists and millionaires. I'll ube so glad when they finally put him in the home for senile despots. New York was a much better place when it was not run by this obsessive plutocrat.
Hippo--
When the building goes condo, the sponsor is going to SELL apartments to insiders and then to outsiders at a higher rate. Rentals to students will stop...and if they don't apartment owners will raise hell.
As for Bloomberg not allowing the place to go condo or coop, why? He's a great friend to the RE community, and tends to be very supportive of big deals--which this will be.
Marketing Stuy Town as a premium, top-shelf product is one of the results of Bloomberg's policies and their effect. In the eleven years since he's taken office, the middle class has been effectively priced out of Manhattan, forced to leave by ever-increasing costs of living and rising rents. The Bloombergization of Manhattan includes a Dunkin' Donuts, Starbucks, CitiBank, Bank of America, Duane Reade, and CVS occupying the vast majority of storefronts here. By rezoning areas around the Brooklyn/Queens waterfront and allowing the construction of these huge glass towers, many with no provisions for "affordable housing," the average rent has risen significantly. This isn't a problem if you live ST/PCV style with five roommates in a three bedroom, but if it's a family you're raising and you don't work for Goldman Sachs it's becoming increasingly impossible to get by. I have a hard time believing the average rent-stabilized resident here can afford a $250,000 price tag with corresponding mortgage and maintenance payments for one of these apartments, much less $400K+.
It would be good if what Hippo is saying were correct. But in 1-2 years there will be people here younger with bigger paychecks who will pay $550K for a 2 BR in ST because they'll figure that in 20 yrs when they're ready to sell, the market price will be $1.5MM+. End of story. This is a balance act. Working together CW & Brookfield will figure out how to do this. It's true that buying at $315 psf would be great for almost all tenants..with big and small pocketbooks. That's the kind of plan the TA should be supporting. But the tenants & the TA notwithstanding, CW & Brookfield will carefully weigh the demographics to get the result that they want. Even now you can see comments on the TAFB page from people who apparently have the money who are saying that $500+ psf is a great deal, price notwithstanding they prefer condos to co-ops, and so on. These people say they will buy. And they apparently don't care what they say publicly that may tend to convince CW & Brookfield that they can inflate the price.
11:29...about half the units in STPCV are paying monthly rents greater than $2000. As a prospective buyer, if your monthly mortgage/maintenance costs are going to come out to your current monthly rent payment, you're going to buy. At these prices, many of the older tenants who are paying less than $2000.mo. (in some cases very much less) will also be likely to buy in order to pass the benefit on to their children and grandchildren. At $315 psf inc closing costs that means that the cost of a 1 BR co-op in ST would be about 250K, somewhat more if a condo. There's no doubt in my mind that well over 50% of the tenants here would buy at equivalent prices. From a tenant perspective what would be the best we could hope for given that there's no free lunch? I think the example is reasonable. Not everyone would be able to buy. Unfortunately, these low end prices are just dreaming. There's no way the cooperation between CW & Brookfield is going to allow such a tenant-favorable result.
"Even now you can see comments on the TAFB page from people who apparently have the money who are saying that $500+ psf is a great deal, price notwithstanding they prefer condos to co-ops, and so on. These people say they will buy. And they apparently don't care what they say publicly that may tend to convince CW & Brookfield that they can inflate the price."
They may be working for/on behalf of Brookfield or CW.
"The Bloombergization of Manhattan ...."
This totally corrupt and evil "man" will go down in history as the worst mayor in the history of New York City. His has been a very destructive and divisive regime and it will take a long, long time for the damage he's done to be repaired. Maybe it never will be repaired.
In what alternate universe are there 2 BR apartments in Manhattan in 2012, near so much going on, with elevators, laundry, new kitchens and baths, the SF and closet space, and with grounds like these that sell for less than $600K?
Seriously, folks, check out the market. There isn't a single legal 2 bedroom condo unit in Manhattan south of 96th street selling for less than $500k. And if you rule out the 600 square foot 2BRs, nothing less than about $800k. If you include INCOME RESTRICTED co-ops, you still don't get $500k... and that turns our home into a housing project. While this place might seem like a bit of a turd, the market out there is sky high.
Here's where things are with CW Capital right now -- they're having private conversations with interested parties but nobody's moving forward in the open because of the TA insanity.
I think CW intends to cut a deal with the city and developers. The city wants affordable housing, developers want to build. There are two scenarios at play:
1) Developer buys complex, "donates" a section (perhaps PCV) to city for housing (HDFC/Section 8). In exchange, they get the right to demolish and rebuild Stuytown at the legal maximum floor area ratio. Incidentally, you can evict rent stabilized tenants if you're demolishing a building. New buildings would be 421a tax abated and would include some "affordable" units.. but legally StuyTown could probably be built with as much as 75% more square footage, and perhaps as much as 150% more if the number of tenants were capped. Think bigger, more expensive units in taller, closer buildings. Logically, it would make sense to start at 1st Ave/14th and expand outwards. Each building could be done as a condo project until the market was ready to absorb, making this potentially a 15-20 year building project as the overall community was gradually demolished and converted.
2) There are some Public Housing "Projects" in areas that are now higher value. Think around City Hall, think LES, think east harlem. City would get PCVST buildings in trade for those which could then be flattened and redeveloped. PCVST units are in great shape compared with public housing, so tenants would benefit.. and developers could turn an asset worth almost nothing (housing projects) into new, high quality housing. Benefit neighborhoods, raise tax base, etc.
Hey ANON 11:38...don't know why you think I'm "clueless"...as I didn't offer a prediction on the purchase price per unit...rather I cut and pasted the comments of others and then added that I think it will definitely be higher than most around here suspect or are ready or able to pay. I then added a list of additional "ownership" charges, most of which are non-issues for renters:
>>Not to mention a few other "minor" additions:
Plus mortgage interest...
Plus maintenance...
Plus owner's insurance...
Plus utilities...
Plus real estate taxes...
Plus parking (if you have a car)...
Plus direct assessments for repairs...
Plus storage (if you have a U-Haul bin or three)...<<
Rather than namecalling, could you offer some insight on which of the expenses listed above are not supported by the facts? Did I actually invent bogus charges that new owners would NOT suddenly have out of pocket? Explain please.
Laundries? What laundries? I take my laundry to an outside place where I know the machines are clean and it will come back to me clean and wholesome. Our "laundries" are filthy, overpriced cess pools. I don't go near our "laundry" rooms anymore. I don't go near our "recycling" rooms anymore. I put everything down the garbage chute and send my laundry out. We don't have laundry rooms worth using and the recycling is a bad joke. Nothing in the recycling rooms gets recycled because it is totally contaminated by filthy effluence of food leftovers and unwashed detritus. So we have elevators. Big deal. That's about it as far as "onsite amenities" goes. No doorman, theft of packages left at doors, filthy pee and poo-ridden stairwells. Big fucking deal. I'm going to buy my apartment to live in this squalor? I don't think so. Plus, I never get a decent night's sleep because of the dorm apartments on either side and upstairs and downstairs from me. They're lucky they get my rent check by the 15th of the month!
Anonymous @ 2:44...In what alternate universe
You should definitely be in sales. I'll bet if you were to take your pitch down to the Oval you would be able to convince everyone here to pony up $600K-$800K for their apartments. Seriously, get in touch with Brookfield. They need someone like you.
To 4:50pm: thank you, I'll stay in my $1400 pm unrenovated ren stabilized apartment (with real rooms) until the bastards pull me or carry me out feet first!
Anon 4:50:
Here's what I found misleading about your post:
And really, I'm not trying to be a party pooper...but why would you cough up money like this to live HERE? You literally could go to other areas of Manhattan for the same or possibly less...and maybe get a doorman thrown in!
That's what I meant when I said to go to some open houses. You clearly have not sense of the market--it's very, very expensive out there.
As for your list of charges, you're making a mostly apples to oranges comparison in terms of cost. Every dollar you spend in rent is gone forever. With buying, people recoup their investment and more, especially in NYC.
Now for your list of items, which are not IN ADDITION TO rent, but replace it (likely at a higher monthly cost but with the benefits of owning);
Plus mortgage interest...
TOTALLY TAX-DEDUCTIBLE, MEANING A HUGE TAX SAVINGS FOR WORKING PEOPLE
Plus maintenance...
THIS COVERS REGULAR MAINTENANCE OF COMMON AREAS, HEATING, ELECTRICITY, PLUS A RESERVE FOR FUTURE IMPROVEMENTS
Plus owner's insurance...
EVERYONE SHOULD ALREADY HAVE INSURANCE--CONDO INSURANCE IS NOT PRICED DIFFERENTLY AND COVERS DAMAGE INSIDE YOUR WALLS
Plus utilities...
WILL BE INCLUDED IN MAINTENANCE UNTIL SUBMETERING IS PUT IN PLACE. AT THAT POINT,RENTERS MIGHT ALSO PAY THEIR OWN UTILITIES
Plus real estate taxes...
TOTALLY TAX-DEDUCTIBLE
Plus parking (if you have a car)...
ALREADY AN INCREMENTAL COST FOR MOST RENTERS
Plus direct assessments for repairs...
NO, MOST CHARGES WILL BE PART OF MAINTENANCE
Plus storage (if you have a U-Haul bin or three)...
ALREADY AN INCREMENTAL COST IF YOU RENT, UNLESS YOU ARE STILL COVERED BY THE OLD TRUNK STORAGE SYSTEM.
9:36 - a little hard to detect your main point. I think you're saying that for 550-600K don't buy here. I'm definitely down with that. I won't.
Deductions for taxes, mortgage and maintenance help but not all that much. The biggest single factor is the base price. At $315 psf I'm definitely a buyer. Turn the dial even a little bit higher and I'm doubtful.
I'm with 11:14PM and 11:59PM. I'm sure there are plenty more like us!
One sad-sack commenter on the TA page enjoys his neighbor's nightlife. Unbelievable.
Laundries? What laundries? I take my laundry to an outside place where I know the machines are clean and it will come back to me clean and wholesome. Our "laundries" are filthy, overpriced cess pools. I don't go near our "laundry" rooms anymore. I don't go near our "recycling" rooms anymore. I put everything down the garbage chute and send my laundry out. We don't have laundry rooms worth using and the recycling is a bad joke. Nothing in the recycling rooms gets recycled because it is totally contaminated by filthy effluence of food leftovers and unwashed detritus. So we have elevators. Big deal. That's about it as far as "onsite amenities" goes. No doorman, theft of packages left at doors, filthy pee and poo-ridden stairwells. Big fucking deal. I'm going to buy my apartment to live in this squalor? I don't think so. Plus, I never get a decent night's sleep because of the dorm apartments on either side and upstairs and downstairs from me. They're lucky they get my rent check by the 15th of the month!"
I must say that although I'm very much a supporter of conversion, I agree wholeheartedly with everything this poster said. While I would like to buy my place, I would need assurances that this place will make a comeback from the cesspool that it currently is. Frequently, I wonder if a comeback is possible at this point. In the event that it stays the dump that it is I will be perfectly content staying a (true rent stabilized) renter until my retirement in 9 years.
Sorry, change of topic - Why was I able to finally enjoy a quiet afternoon in my Oval apartment without being blasted with horrific "music" from another faux concert? What's the special occasion? Are "concerts" over for the summer, or did the "musicians" finally wise-up and get sick of playing to an audience of only 5?
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