So says Steve Kuritz, an analyst of mortgage-backed securities for Morningstar Credit Ratings, according to an online New York Post article on PCVST.
The gist is that the property has now been valued by an "independent appraiser" for CWCapital at 3.2 billion, which is closing in on the $3.4 billion necessary for the bondholders to break even on their investment.
The article continues: "Kuritz pointed to an uptick in cash flow from the rentals, which he estimates has risen to $167 million this year from $129 million in 2009."
Also: "The owners will have no shortage of bidders, based on the many suitors who have been salivating over the property for years."
Interestingly, one possible suitor, billionaire investor Wilbur Ross, states: “I would have no interest in it if it is simply an expensive ticket to internecine warfare among the tenants."
Don't expect a quick deal, though. A lawyer for CWCapital sees a "final resolution" occurring in 2014.
62 comments:
Don't expect a quick deal, though. A lawyer for CWCapital sees a "final resolution" occurring in 2014
And that is only if Brookfield/TA loses out on the property. If Brookfield/TA is chosen then add 5 years to that date for lawsuits to work their way through the system.
Wilbur Ross hit the nail on the head
Take a good look at the Wilbur Ross comment. How would Ross be aware of any disagreement among the tenants? He'd never see it from any of the media coverage, and he'd never see it in any of the Garodnick statements, Meredith Kane statements, TA meetings & TA websites. He's seeing it in community blogs like this one and others. Well, that's good. You keep yourself out of this one Wilbur. What you really mean is that you aren't prepared to support any plan that's sure to gain tenant applause & approval. You want something a little bit more exploitative. Well, you stick to CNBC, Wilbur, and whatever else you like to do, and we'll go on taking care of business here.
Firstly, a Happy and Healthy 2013 to all and to you, STR, in particular for the wonderful service you provide to the community in hosting this blog.
2014, 2015,...the millenium...the "final resolution" ain't gonna happen. NO WAY Stuy Town-Peter Cooper will EVER go condo or coop. Here is why: 1. The TA has NO money to bring to the table. It is as if I offer to buy the Brooklyn Bridge for three billion but I have fifty cents in my pocket. 2. The parasitic ghouls, be they Brookfield, Compass Cock, Wilbur Ross, or Wilbur from Mr. Ed...lol...are only interested in sucking as much gelt out of this place and then making a quick getaway.
3. Too much infighting among various tenant groups. The various factions that arise surely will make the U.S. Congress seem like a love fest.
4. His Royal Highness, the Exalted Emperor Bloomberg and the real estate interests will NEVER let 80-acres of prime real estate fall into private hands.
Just one individual here expressing my opinion. Feel free to agree, disagree or comment.
I expect to be a RS tenant here until they carry me out in a box...not too soon I hope! And then my daughter will take over the apartment under the Laws of Succession. So at least some remnant of the middle class will survive in the city.
Peace and love to all and keep chuckling!
A Happy and Healthy New Year to you, too. I don't disagree with your summary. I'd also like to know more about the "independent" appraiser who has valued this property at 3.2 billion.
Unfortunately,
I agree with most of 11:35am. Knowing a bit too much about city government myself, no way will NYC make it happen.
and, the constant bickering between tenants will be an issue.
Am I the only one who thinks $3.2 Billion is surprisingly cheap? Assuming there are 11,250 units that works out to only $284,500 per unit.
Obviously there will be a vig on top of that if the place converts but that's still astonishing considering market rate apartments are $4 - $5K per month.
Instead of pursuing this pipe dream of owning the place, the TA should be pursuing a rent reduction for diminution of services as the result of the property being turned into a dorm. We have less service than we ever had. The recycling areas are absolutely ridiculous because instead of the normal amount of recycling that would be generated by families, we have mountains of crap generated by 8 to 10 to a unit students. To make it worse, we have fewer people working to clean it up. I don't recycle anything any more because i) the recycling is contaminated by all the food garbage that is dumped in with it; and, ii) I feel sorry for the porters who have to haul this crap and try to sort it. In real residential buildings, building staff just have to lug the stuff out to the trucks, but this is not a normal residential property by any stretch of the imagination. Instead, it is a badly run, over crowded DORM.
@11:35
You may be right but consider this-should a conversion occur, over time, your RS rent will steadly increase w/RGB increases to a point where your condo owning neighbor will be paying less while owning his/her unit.
So, if you've put down that pipe of whatvever you're smoking long enough to save a few shekels, you may even consider buying.
And,to your point #4, PCVST has been in private hands since 1947, no?
Wilbur Ross is no fool.
The TA continues to embarrass itself by failing to truly represent the tenants.
No way NYC "will make it happen?" This property has changed hands twice in the past six years already. What makes you think it won't happen again. Please.
My biggest disappointment in recent weeks was the line in the Post article which informed us that there was, in fact, $250 million in flood insurance on the property. I was secretly hoping that CW was going to have to eat the entire cost of this debacle. As it turns out, the only one suffering is the tenants. I guess there's nothing new there.
In response to:
1) The TA has endorsed Brookfield. Brookfield has the money. Don't understand what your point is.
2) I agree companies' main interest is to suck as much $ as they can out of this place, which is why tenant ownership is better.
3) This is merely a hunch. My hunch is you are vastly overestimating the infighting at STPCV.
4) I'm not a real estate expert, nor a govt expert. I hope you're wrong in your opinion on this one.
I do understand why you are against a conversion (I'm assuming you are.) It sounds as though it wouldn't make sense for you - and more power to you. But I do hope you're wrong on the points you've expressed. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I don't follow Hippo's reasoning.
1. The TA doesn't have to have the money to buy the place. They've simply identified a partner who has the money, and tenants who want to buy will also put up money.
2. This point I agree with, but that doesn't make us different from any other conversion.
3. I don't see what difference alleged infighting among tenants will make to a conversion. Tenants will either buy or not buy, depending on the terms offered.
4. Bloomberg declined to intervene when MetLife sold the place--when he should have due to the tax breaks the city (and by extension the citizens) gave to MetLife. Why would he intervene at a later date (if he's still the mayor when this happens)?
I, too, would like to be an RS tenant till they carry me out feetfirst--if RS lasts that long. But haven't these issues been hashed out here in the past? Seems to me that with Roberts pretty much resolved and apartments being reno'ed and rented quickly, we're getting closer to seeing which of the scenarios that have been talked about ad nauseam will actually come to pass.
For me, what's new, thanks to Sandy, is that the property is vulnerable in ways I never realized. Now everyone thinking of buying should consider whether they're willing to tolerate future flooding conditions and the costs that will be incurred to fix them.
I agree that the TA should pursue a claim for diminution of services including reductions in staff which has lead to dirtier buildings, increasingly inadequate laundry rooms ( assuming your building still has one) , allowing the grounds to be destroyed in many areas , etc etc . CW is just cutting back more and more likely because they plan on selling in the next few years and would rather dump the expense on the new owners.The TA has expressed no interest in pursuing this claim - nI wonder why?
The TA has expressed no interest in pursuing this claim - nI wonder why? --
I wonder why, too. I don't plan on renewing my membership in the TA (and I am a longtime member) because they seem pretty useless. Even on their Facebook page, the airheads who are posting are more interested in sink arrangements and borrowing VCRs, than in the issues that beset us. Probably because they don't plan to be here for very long and it really doesn't matter to them what happens to the property.
City governments (all of them) do not want to take thousands of rentals out of the rental pool.
FACT.
If you're a member of the TA, you've already received an email cautioning about accepting the rent rebate because by paying your rent CW says you will be waiving your right to sue in the future. Now Bill DeBlasio has added his voice to the issue. http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/174760/public-advocate-blasts-how-stuy-town--peter-cooper-village-handled-sandy-rent-credits
What are we going to sue CW for in the future? What's wrong with taking the rent rebate now?
Actually I think the TA doesn't want to pursue a diminution of services claim against CW is that they don't want to anger CW before the expected bidding contest for the complex.
@4:34 - Going Condo won't necessarily take rentals out of the rental pool. Lot's of owners may choose to rent depending on their circumstance and needs at the moment.
I just called about no heat and was told that we are back on a sensor system. That means that if somebody is cooking and has a space heater on in one apartment, the sensor thinks the whole building is at 80 degrees! Time to get the space heaters out again. We are back on the old Tishman Speyer heating system!
Happy, healthy 2013, STR. All best wishes to you and your family. I hope you have the strength and patience to keep on keeping on! Thanks for all your good work.
STR, where are yooooooooo? Hope you're ok!
Happy New Year!
STR, unfortunately you appear to be losing interest in your blog. It's understandable given how long you have been at it. but I have to say that I now visit this page much less frequently than I used to. Pity, but thanks for all you have done in the past.
I'm fine, but I have very little time these days to devote to the blog. I hope to have a "Year's End" roundup, but obviously past the year's end!
STR, I am grateful for the time and efforts you put into the blog and don't expect you to be available all the time. You are the best and please don't feel that we don't appreciate you or begrudge a break from the blog when you need one. Happy and Healthy New Year to you and your family.
Has anybody found their renter's insurance premiums increase by virtue of the fact that we are now living in a dorm which, along with the illegal b&bs, increases the risk of fire, theft, etc.?
RE: Heat Sensors, there are multiple apartments in each line with sensors. It averages them out and probably ignores abnormally high readings (in theory).
Anonymous said...
What are we going to sue CW for in the future? What's wrong with taking the rent rebate now?
December 31, 2012 9:56 AM
Some scenarios:
For buildings that flooded, there could be mold or other situations in the future if the basements aren't properly dried out and reconstructed.
For people dependent on medical equipment or medication that was affected by the loss of electricity, there could be repercussions down the road.
Those are just two, and there might be more.
The building I live in is one of the dorm buildings, absolutely infested with students crammed into units designed for much fewer occupants. The past couple of weeks have been great because the students have been away. The recycling room has been clean and the noise has been gone and the peace and quiet palpable. Unfortunately, they are back! The recycling room is overflowing with trash; these idiots don't know the difference between plastic and paper and oozing garbage bags are overflowing and decorating the hall outside the
recycling room (I guess they don't have keys to the recycling rooms).
I would love to buy my apartment, whether it is a Gutterman coop or a TA/Brookfield condo. I have worked hard and saved and came into a little inheritance, so I could buy without a doubt. However, I will not buy into a FUCKING DORM! How the hell anyone could think of buying an apartment in a project that is almost a total dorm is beyond me. Maybe NYU should buy the complex and buy out the rent stabilized tenants such as myself. No way will I move out otherwise and no way will I buy into a dorm. The dorm factor reduces the value of the property because the dorms take so much more maintenance by management, they pose a fire risk and, in general, reduce the quality of life for renting tenants. I often wonder to what extent the landlord (whoever the hell that is) is breaking FDNY and zoning laws by using the units as dorms. Maybe we won't find out until tragedy hits and we all get burnt out. I hope I'm not giving CWSleaze any ideas!
Maintenance has been cut to the absolute bone by Compass Rock. Thereby are no maintenance workers 9on weekends. This a flagrant diminish net of services and if the TA won't do anything about it maybe we should get together a group who will file a complaint with the DHCR. Anybody else noticed the decrease in manpower on the maintenance staff along with the "up yours" attitude of the management offices?
The "up yours " attitude is prevalent. I fear the TA is so focused on trying to own this place that they are continuing to ignore the increasing problems of the community. Yes, tenant ownership may be a laudable goal but it does nothing to deal with the diminution of services by management except perhaps in the very long term and then only if CW sells to us (and nothing requires them to do so). A community-wide petition to the DHCR for a rent reduction based on diminution of services (and I am not including service outages caused by Sandy) will have a much more meaningful impact on our lifes in STPCV in the short and medium term
"STR, unfortunately you appear to be losing interest in your blog. It's understandable given how long you have been at it. but I have to say that I now visit this page much less frequently than I used to. Pity, but thanks for all you have done in the past."
Even if STR only posts every few weeks, I am content. I think it's great that he does it at all. Thank you, STR.
We really ought to have a post just about the student situation & what if anything can be done about it. Sat nite there was a student party on main. The noise level was incredible. Students coming out pretty well bombed to have some smokes in front of the building. Don't know how the neighbors on main were able to put up with it.
I strongly agree with 1:50's post concerning need to confront QOL impacts from student/dorm behavior. Weekends have become unbearable. I long for TA advocacy/leadership on this. It doesn't seem like the TA board cares about this issue one bit.
Change of topic if I may:
I just received the interest check on my rent security for 2012 from Stuy Town...the munificent total of $3.16. How can this be? "Wats up wit dat as they say in da hood?"
I am so confused. Should I go out to a fancy dinner or use the $3.16 as a down payment when this dump finally goes condo or coop? Please advise ASAP. I can't take anymore of these sleepless nights?!
Even if STR only posts every few weeks, I am content. I think it's great that he does it at all. Thank you, STR. >>
Agreed! I would rather have substance over form any time! I would hate for STR to get burned out and not blog at all. We really need him at this time when the property is in such flux; the TA is useless, and we are besieged by stinking students and all the quality of life reductions and fire and bedbug threats that they bring into our community. I have no intention of moving, but I deeply resent the way we tenants (both RS and MR) are being treated. I particularly feel bad for the MR tenants who are paying through the nose to live in a dorm. The students, with their noise, overcrowding, boozing and generally disruptive behavior have no business being here. Maybe if their parents knew what STPCV is really like they wouldn't be so keen on having their {high maintenance] spawn live here.
Has anyone here ever been inside one of these dorm apartments? I have, and I can tell you these kids are being ripped off and exploited by both NYU and CW. I lived in a dorm when I was a student and I certainly had more privacy and room to study than these Stydormies have even though I was sharing with another student. The ever-voracious John Sextom and the ever greedy CW are cashing in on NYU's perfidious and doubtful reputation as a seat of academic excellence. It is a corporation, just like, say Proctor & Gamble, but a lot less transparent.
You will not find much - if any - sympathy for the students living in STPCV. They do NOT belong here. PERIOD. Put them all in dorms full of other students. THAT'S where they belong.
"You will not find much - if any - sympathy for the students living in STPCV. They do NOT belong here. PERIOD. Put them all in dorms full of other students. THAT'S where they belong."
Totally agree. They should never have been brought here in the first place and the overcrowded arrangements have increased the risk of fire and put a terrible strain on the garbage situation and at a time when the property's maintenance and security personnel have been cut to the bone. It is a total travesty that the property is being misused and the tenants abused in this way. The blatant corruption between NYU/City Government/CW Capital is staggering.
What percentage of apartments are rented to NYU students? Are there any statistics on this?
I say again...there needs to be a post if not a single blog just talking about the situation with students. By comparison, the dog situation is nothing. Unless a plan like Guterman's wins (where 80% of the tenants are incented to buy) & unless there are protections like the kinds of protections a co-op format offers, renting & subletting to students is so lucrative, the sponsor & many tenant owners won't resist the temptation rent or sublet to students & the whole place will be lowered in value.
>>What percentage of apartments are rented to NYU students? Are there any statistics on this?<<
There must be statistics on this, but they are a closely guarded secret by the landlord.
Interesting article in the WSJ about TS and STPCV. It says the commercial real estate industry is very forgiving; fails to say that the screwed over tenants at STPCV are not so forgiving. Says Rob Speyer learned his lesson, but fails to say that nepotism is no substitute for intelligence. Also fails to mention that it was undiluted avarice and greed of the the most deadly sin quality that drove the deal.
In my building on 1st ave I would put it at about 30% students apts to 70% longer term residents...however, with that said, it does in fact seem many more people live in the student apartments making the entire population closer to 50/50 I'd guess.
BTW, I WAS an NYU student once...so no offense...I just think dorm life and family residences are not necessarily great living mates.
.I just think dorm life and family residences are not necessarily great living mates.>>
That is an understatement! My son went to NYU, though he didn't live in a Stuydorm because Stuyvesant Town wasn't a dorm then, but I wouldn't have wanted him and his pals to be living anywhere near us anyway! And he was probably one of the quieter more well-behaved kids.
Dorms in a residential complex just don't work well. Since the students came back from their holidays break, we now have noise and disruption; overflowing recycling areas; oozing bags of garbage left outside the recycling are doors (don't they give them keys or are they just too lazy to use them?), and the clusters of them smoking under M and T level tenants' windows and flicking their butts onto the steps of the building. One bunch of little pratts who smoke weed all the time and try to disguise it with incense sticks throw their crap out the window and it lands on the air conditioner of the tenant beneath them. I've seen them do this from my window. Maybe I should take a photograph and send it to management. Or their mothers! LOL.
I am not against students; I am just against them living here! It is an absolute affront to those non-student tenants who want to live normal NON-DORM lives!
Do you know they are in fact students, or are they young professionals? I think you all over estimate the actual student population.
7:43 pm: I know they are students. The young professionals are a different breed. They can't come home wasted at 2 am every night and remain employed. Besides, I make a point of finding out if troublesome tenants are students and they always are.
I can tell you the following fact: there is no contract with NYU for undergrads. Most of you consider anyone under 35 to be a "student." Many of these people are married and working. Wake up and grow up!
"The young professionals are a different breed. They can't come home wasted at 2 am every night and remain employed"
- Maybe not every night, but they are certainly coming home wasted at 2 Am Thursday - Saturday.
Perhaps removing the students will cut down on a bit of the mid week noise, but I'm not sure it's going to have the quite the effect people on this blog are assuming.
NYU lists ST as a graduate residence hall: http://www.nyu.edu/life/living-at-nyu/on-campus-living/explore-the-residencehalls.html
It claims that 250 grads and 8 resident assistants live in our "residence hall": http://www.nyu.edu/life/living-at-nyu/on-campus-living/explore-the-residencehalls/Stuyvesant-Town.html
From the description of furnishings: "Hard floors in student rooms and suites." No mention of having to cover the floors.
Got complaints? Why not try contacting "amazing resources" Melissa Davison, residence hall director, at 212-998-4971, melissa.davison@nyu.edu ("I am very excited to work with RAs and residents to plan and develop a vibrant social community and a fabulous schedule of programs for our student body."), or Olga Sanchez-Eltell, residence hall resource manager, at 212-998-4210, obs200@nyu.edu.
‘I can tell you the following fact: there is no contract with NYU for undergrads. Most of you consider anyone under 35 to be a "student." Many of these people are married and working. Wake up and grow up!”
Well here’s a fact Einstein that has been going on for quite some time. Undergraduate NYUers and other colleges students are going directly to the Leasing office. Their parents guarantee the lease so there is no direct NYU administrative contact at all with CompassRock. The same thing holds for the hordes of just post college tenants who just as narcissistic and clueless as their undergraduate brethren. Then there are the mid to late 20 something’s who also have to pack into dorm style apartments. As the dorm style apartment roommates skews older, there seems to be less of an issue but it’s not a guarantee. With at least 3 people (many still funded by their parents) on the lease plus relationships, one can have 6 unrelated adults in one apartment. That’s a dorm with all its attendant issues.
I hope the men who are putting up the scaffolds and doing the work on the exteriors of the buildings are properly trained, unionized workers and not the usual untrained, undocumented day workers that we had crawling all over the property for a long time. The reason we are paying for windows that are as useless as the ones they replaced is because MetLife used non-unionized (of course!) parolees who didn't know shit from shine and robbed a lot of apartments while they were doing the work.
I can tell you the following fact: there is no contract with NYU for undergrads. Most of you consider anyone under 35 to be a "student." Many of these people are married and working. Wake up and grow up! >>>>>
That is total BULL, pal! How do I know, because I have seen the contracts. Some of us work in places where these contracts are drawn up, typed, executed, etc. If I worked in a hospital, I could see your X-rays. Same principle. No further information will be given.
You are either a troll or grossly mis-informed. The reason we are paying for replacement windows has nothing to do with who installed them, although we never should have had to pay the MCI for them since they were so grossly defective, having been manufactured at a higher altitude in Colorado, I believe, that made them implode after installation at our lower altitude. Get your facts straight.
"You are either a troll or grossly mis-informed. The reason we are paying for replacement windows has nothing to do with who installed them, although we never should have had to pay the MCI for them since they were so grossly defective, having been manufactured at a higher altitude in Colorado, I believe, that made them implode after installation at our lower altitude. Get your facts straight."
I HAVE my facts straight. I am one of the tenants who had these guys swarming through her apartment putting the windows in. We had the union guys outside picketing. The guys were parolees and picked off a few things here and there (not from me) and did a rotten job of putting the windows in. They were untrained and uncouth! Sure the windows were crap to begin with, but they were incorrectly installed. Two of mine imploded and had to be replaced before the idiots at MetLife sent more guys (this time their own employees) around to every apartment to let out the ergon gas between the panes. I KNOW my facts because I lived though them!
One more thing, I said the reason we are paying for windows that are garbage .... was maybe misleading. I should have said we are paying for windows which are garbage whereas they should have been perfect. I understand we have to pay for them, anyway. It's just too bad that they are garbage. Clear enough?
I also was living here when the window were replaced and the men who did mine were fast and efficient and apologetic for any disruption they might have been causing. Your windows imploded because of the pressure differential, NOT because they were improperly installed. EVERYONE's windows were drilled to let the gas out so that they would not crack/implode. Your windows were some of the ones that actually did crack prior to them being drilled - which is how Management realized that there was a problem with the new windows - and THAT is the reason they had to be replaced, NOT because they were improperly installed.
I had no problems with the window installers either. Very professional and courteous. Thank goodness they were non union. Imagine how much we would have had to overpay if union goons installed the windows.
" Anonymous said...
I had no problems with the window installers either. Very professional and courteous. Thank goodness they were non union. Imagine how much we would have had to overpay if union goons installed the windows.
January 21, 2013 at 2:24 PM"
So the fact that all of ST/PCV's service personnel are unionized is irrelevant to you ? You're simply trolling this group without any substance in fact.
So the fact that all of ST/PCV's service personnel are unionized is irrelevant to you ?
That's right. Totally irrelevant!
No idea what the rest of your ridiculous response is about.
Re the faulty windows, with them being drilled to let out the inert gas, so went the sound proofing as well. That's why the Bro herd migrations and the clowns who drink, smoke and scream at the entrances are such fun to listen to.
"Re the faulty windows, with them being drilled to let out the inert gas, so went the sound proofing as well. That's why the Bro herd migrations and the clowns who drink, smoke and scream at the entrances are such fun to listen to."
You got that right. It's a travesty that we are paying in perpetuity for those sucking windows.
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