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Tuesday, May 1, 2012

In case you missed it....

The greenmarket is scheduled to open this Sunday.  Here's the official word from our Tenants Association on the greenmarket and food trucks:

http://www.stpcvta.org/ta/post/greenmarket_to_return_for_residents_only

The Tenants Association of Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village has long been concerned about the commercialization of the property, and has fought to protect the residential character of our neighborhood.

We are pleased to report today that as a result of our advocacy, and with the support of our Councilman Dan Garodnick, CW Capital agreed to remove the food truck which was omni-present on Stuyvesant Oval, and to only allow it to return during limited special events for residents.  On the other hand, the greenmarket, a popular offering for ST/PCV residents, will be able to return in its present location.

After an inquiry to various city agencies, it became clear that a greenmarket operating as an “open commercial use” would be prohibited, but making it available for residents and their guests only could be allowed.  Accordingly, CW agreed to change their policy and make it absolutely clear that the market is serving as an “accessory use” to the property for residents and guests, not open to the general public.  They will be adding language in all of their marketing materials, including any ads around the perimeter of the property, indicating that its greenmarket is intended for “residents and their guests only.”

The TA is pleased with this fair and sensible resolution of these issues. It thanks Councilman Garodnick for his key assistance in resolving the matter. 

-------------

Of course, I was thinking why does a greenmarket not open to the general pubic need "ads around the perimeter of the property," but we must surmise that there are residents completely unaware of what goes on here, who just live around the perimeter (or in Peter Cooper Village) and need to be told what's happening inside. Still....

Meanwhile, B&Y Farms has changed its main webpage to stress that their produce is for RESIDENTS.

58 comments:

Anonymous said...

And this "residents and guests only"Greenmarket regulation, how will this be enforced? Just like the certain dogs breeds that are not permitted on the property regulation is enforced. Meaning never. Very sad.

Anonymous said...

This is such BS! We don't need the stupid "green market" here because a) we are not a shopping market (yet), and b) we have a perfectly good green market a few blocks away at Union Square. How are they going to keep outsiders away? This is just simply BULLSHIT! The TA and Goradnick are useless.

Anonymous said...

"The TA is pleased with this fair and sensible resolution of these issues. It thanks Councilman Garodnick for his key assistance in resolving the matter. "

What a bunch of kiss-ass losers.

This is the muscle the TA is going to bring to a condo negotiation ?? Good luck.

Anonymous said...

What a sham.

I suspect the signs will read something like: "Greenmarket in progress. Please do not enter the property to buy food! Stop! Wait! No!!! Well...if you do come in to buy overpriced carrots, just tell them you're a guest of Helene Simpson in 9A...she'll vouch for you. By the way, have you seen the coupons we posted online?!? And tell them Dan sent ya..."

Anonymous said...

yeah right!


only residents and their guests will be allowed at the Farmer's Market.

Such BS.


PS. What's the deal with playground 10????

Anonymous said...

When is the TA and DG going to stop insulting our intelligence? I can't stand this nonsense. I wouldn't go to that Greenmarket if they were giving stuff away because it is so totally inappropriate to have it here. The TA and DG are such a bunch of spineless losers.

Anonymous said...

What 1-5 said.
What a crock.

Anonymous said...

Garodnick has jello where his backbone should be. What a sell out. And the TA backs him up. Pathetic and useless on this issue. Both of them.

Anonymous said...

Anybody know what is going on on 14 street loop? There is a whole bunch of squad cars and Security.

Anonymous said...

The food trucks can come back for "special events"? What's stopping Andrew MacArthur from deeming ALL the events special? I call bullshit!

frustrated with haters said...

You know what, realistically you could think of it as OUR own private greenmarket. Do you really think people who live in let's say, Williamsburg, are going to come to STUY TOWN to buy fresh produce? No way, they're going to Union Square. The stretch of 1st avenue isn't a heavy traffic area other than for people who live/work in the area. Even if people were intrigued by signs near the perimeter, they'd get lost in our complex before finding the greenmarket anyway. I for one think it's a nice idea, even though I'll probably never go, as long as it doesn't make any amplified noise or bother the residents that live near Playground 12.

Now, the list of "events" that ST is planning on putting on that I got under my door recently....well...I have a lot to say about that. And they mostly are four letter words.

Anonymous said...

After an inquiry to various city agencies, it became clear that a greenmarket operating as an “open commercial use” would be prohibited, but making it available for residents and their guests only could be allowed. Accordingly, CW agreed to change their policy and make it absolutely clear that the market is serving as an “accessory use” to the property for residents and guests, not open to the general public.

“Accessory use” is an unenforceable designation because Rose Associates and CW Capital are not interested or willing to enforce it. Tenants should go back to the Department of Buildings and Commissioner Burden and tell them what a travesty this designation is. Shame on Dan Garodnick; I will not vote for him again. And shame on the TA; I will be cancelling my membership with them.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know what the deal was last night with the two people being arrested on the 14th St. loop at about 11 p.m.? Lots of security followed by cops, two people in handcuffs, etc.?

Anonymous said...

Yet another profile in courage. Once again, our elected officials and the TA have shown that they will not sit idly by...

Tommyboyardee said...

When they are all done patting each other on the back for legally phrasing a sentence to cover each other, what has changed? The TA and Garodnick have both clearly demonstrated their powers of uselessness. I'm sure the green market is strictly a marketing ploy for future market rate tenants, I would suggest a protest by the commercial tenants that surround Stuyvesant Town. I myself can't wait for the tractor rides with Hillbilly Danny G. & the private secretive club known as the TA.

Stuy Town Reporter said...

>>Does anyone know what the deal was last night with the two people being arrested on the 14th St. loop at about 11 p.m.?<<

I've heard of another incident that happened about a week ago. Can't confirm. I guess we'll have to wait until T&V comes out to see what crimes the precinct reports.

Anonymous said...

playground 10 (aka the former ice rink) will be turned into a mini golf on may 16th http://www.pcvst.com/

Stuy Town Reporter said...

>>“Accessory use” is an unenforceable designation<<

Accessory use opens up the entire property to commercialization if the stipulation is "for residents and their guests only." I doubt a property owner would want to devalue the property that way, however, but it does give the property owner certain legal freedoms.

Anonymous said...

Have you thought about the idea that the TA IS representing the residents wishes because most residents WANT the greenmarket? So they are doing what they can to keep it? I don't think they rolled over, I think they are representing what most tenants want. Being the minority does sometimes mean you don't get what you want, no matter how loudly you keep stamping your feet.

Anonymous said...

1:06 a.m.--that's true. I mean, I said elsewhere that I used to walk through Stuytown, but I lived in Waterside, so it was mostly a short cut. I'd stop at times to sit, go to the annual tag sale on occasion, but really, this is not the destination spot you think it is to outsiders. Indeed, I and many people I knew found it (and my own Waterside) a bit Soviet-style, and friends and I would laughingly/lovingly sing the Internationale as we walked through. I like it now that I live here, the landscaping actually is pretty, but the buildings are still horrendous by any architectural standard, lol.

Also, there is a Sunday market at Tompkins Square that is more likely to attract outsiders than ours (though they don't have the variety we have, which is why I like ours, particularly if I couldn't make it to Saturday's Union Square market. The more local, organic food the better is what I say.

Stuy Town Reporter said...

>>Have you thought about the idea that the TA IS representing the residents wishes because most residents WANT the greenmarket?<<

What percentage of residents, though? Most residents do not use the greenmarket. So the ones that do are in the minority.

Anonymous said...

Have you thought about the idea that the TA IS representing the residents wishes because most residents WANT the greenmarket? So they are doing what they can to keep it? I don't think they rolled over, I think they are representing what most tenants want. Being the minority does sometimes mean you don't get what you want, no matter how loudly you keep stamping your feet.

OK. For the umpteenth time people, this is about THE LAW, THE ZONING LAWS, to be exact. From the day it opens this Sunday, this market will violate its "accessory use" designation because Stuyvesant Town is OPEN TO THE PUBLIC!!!!! There is nothing and no one to keep anyone out of it. Got it? Really, what don't you people understand about the rule of law and the slippery slope that we are now on with this market because Dan Garodnick and the TA caved on this issue??

Anonymous said...

Why are you "yelling?" I don't agree with you, you don't have to say it ten thousand times and get "louder" each time. I heard you the first time, and I just think you are incorrect.

Anonymous said...

Anony 9.59 AM-Sorry, the legal issue was the location of the Greenmarket at the Oval. Full disclosure, I am against commercialization of our community’s public spaces including the Greenmarket but the location of the Greenmarket at, again, the Oval (a section which has now been permanently paved over), was the issue. After Amanda Burden’s “advisory” (that’s the key word here-how conveniently nebulous) letter was received stating that “an open commercial use” would be prohibited from operating on residentially zoned sections of the complex (4/19/2012 T&V article), Dan Garodnick offered to help with CW Capital to re-locate the Greenmarket to a legal location. What a lot of us are upset about is this "accessory use“ is totally unenforceable (residents and their guests) for the Greenmarket and it will be used in the future to convert any other open space or playground to commercial use. Historically whether mostly residents bought at the Greenmarket is besides the point. This is why this is cave by Dan and the TA.

On another related issue, the notice received at our doors regarding playground ten says: ”Mini Gold Weekend, May 12-13,Fun, free mini golf all weekend long!” And what will appear at playground 10 after that? On June 8, “Outdoor Sports Screening-Major League Baseball: Yankees vs. Mets Series Opener-ON THE OVAL”. Pave over the Oval, de done with it,put up a 7-11 and other amenities of the suburban crowd who are not only changing our community but the very soul of Manhattan to fit their suburban culture.

Stuy Town Reporter said...

Just a note that I'm urging posters to refrain from extreme statements about people--CW Capital, Management, other posters, etc. There are solid points being made here, and I fully understand the passion, but we can't go overboard in invective. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Thanks STR!

Anonymous said...

I was the poster who labeled another poster “clueless”. I was an ass. I apologize.

Tommyboyardee said...

I need to stop laughing first, the TA believes the tenants surrounding the Oval want more noise, unregulated open space traffic, potential commercial trucks off-loading and re-loading of produce. Much like the increased use of golf carts, Stuy Town survived the first 50 years without such usage, now every sub-contractor has their own fleet. If we lose another supermarket, we can apply for travel vouchers to do our shopping. BTW the Associated Super market has so vastly improved their fresh food dept. for what? A temporary street vendor under the guise of a Farmer, get real TA, wake up a smell the lost serenity of peaceful quietness.

Anonymous said...

I think a lot of us just have to come to the realization that people here (most people) don't care about the ZONING laws. They won't care if it's a noisy , smelly truck selling $5 cupcakes, a green market or a Walgreens ---right smack in place of the Oval.

To keep arguing about it is just ridiculous. I, for one, love a green market, love a foodtruck, but not where it's ILLEGAL to do so. The laws are put in place for a reason. And yes, it will lead to more commercialization. Inevitable. But we're singing to the choir here.

Anonymous said...

Tommyboyardee: I agree with you 1000%.

Anonymous said...

"Does anyone know what the deal was last night with the two people being arrested on the 14th St. loop at about 11 p.m.? Lots of security followed by cops, two people in handcuffs, etc.?"

Someone was beaten outside 445 East 14th Street near Playground 7. I walked by after it took place and a lady who saw the attack said it was violent. A man getting kicked in the face.

Anonymous said...

Why are you "yelling?" I don't agree with you, you don't have to say it ten thousand times and get "louder" each time. I heard you the first time, and I just think you are incorrect.

With all due respect, your kind of willfully ignorant thinking is what is causing a lot of the problems around here. Stuyvesant Town is OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, which means that the Greenmarket is OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, which means that it does NOT qualify for "accessory use" designation. Period. Garodnick and the TA are well aware of this, but to placate the selfish people like you who insist on having everything under the sun right under your nose, they have caved on this vital quality-of-life issue, which is both wrong and regrettable. Sadly, there is no longer any peace and quiet on the grounds here, only non-stop social events. Over 500, in fact, as Management delightly reports on their many websites. The mind boogles at the number. Living here now is like being on a cruise ship 24/7/365.

You are absolutely correct on one point, however: you will never agree with me. Why? Because you don't care that the law is being broken since it suits YOU and your selfishness to see it broken. Unlike you and all too many others with an "I want what I want when I want it" mentality, many of us DO care when the law is broken. There is a reason that there are laws in place. In this case, it's so that rampant commercialization does not overtake residentially zoned areas and negatively impact people's right to the quiet enjoyment of their homes, which is exactly what many of the events on the Oval do to those who are unfortunate enough to live on or near it. My guess is that you are probably not one of those people so you don't give a damn. Unfortunately, talking to people who think like you is like talking to a brick wall.

Tommyboyardee said...

Thanks, I am tempted to throw myself in front of a speeding golf cart, sub-contractor vehicle, earth moving backho?, rental garbage truck, but not a motorized delivery bike. How nothing of this magnitude has not happened is beyond me. Does anyone know of such an occurrence? I believe Rose has only banned Reckless Biking, ie., after the accident.

Anonymous said...

While there is not any accurate way to determine how many people are in favor and not in favor of the the greenmarket without a costly survey - I just would like to offer that I believe it is wonderful that the greenmarket will again be here for us.

There definitely are things that need to change or be kicked out of our community - I believe the greenmarket is not one one of them.

This is a sensible solution.

Anonymous said...

This is pasted from 10:05 poster: "many of us DO care when the law is broken"

It depends on what law it is, if its j-walking no, if its assult on the premises then yes, we do care.

This is j walking, I would guarantee many of the residents do not care about this particular "law" being broken.

Your slippery slope argument carries no weight either, they are not building a walgreens, apples and oranges.

Anonymous said...

How funny is the TV newspaper. They write an article on using stuytown and pcv as short term hotel rentals, but in the back classified, an ad for a couple requesting a one month rental in stuy.

Really?

Anonymous said...

Why won't you put in a Walgreens at some point? WHY not? business is business all Rose employees.

Anonymous said...

"Your slippery slope argument carries no weight either, they are not building a walgreens, apples and oranges."

Would probably be a CVS as Walgreens already rents an expanded space from them on 1st Ave. They're not likely to put another store in the complex.

Anonymous said...

10:05--I can't even read your words over your insults. It's not effective writing, it turns people off and makes you look like you don't have an argument. Just stop saying "selfish" "ignorant" "don't care about the law being broken" all these attacks on people's character and just make your point. It has nothing to do with whether it is or is not actually illegal, an accessory use, etc. People will disagree about that, don't attack them for making an opposing argument.

Anonymous said...

Agree with the poster who said that trying to reason with the people who want the Greenmarket on the Oval Is like talking to a brick wall.

All of you brick walls should read James J. Roth's anti-"accessory use" letter in this week's T&V. Maybe you'll get it then, though I doubt it.

Anonymous said...

I don't agree with you. Period. It's not a brick wall. I think I am right and you are wrong. You think you are right and I am wrong. Period.

From my perspective, you are as much a brick wall, as selfish, as ignorant, as you think I am. But those words aren't very effective argument points, so I usually leave them off.

James Roth said...

To the Editor:

It is unfortunate that Council Member Garodnick has gone along with CW and Rose in sidestepping the zoning rules (and apparently ignoring the “clearly incidental” and “customarily found” requirements found in the Zoning Resolution definition of Accessory Use) to allow the return of the greenmarket to the Oval under the pretense that its availability will be limited to “residents and their guests only,” and the return of food trucks at “special events.” Notably, “special events” are not defined so, presumably, anything that CW and Rose declare to be a special event, perhaps even the greenmarket, will qualify. By agreeing to this pretense, the Council Member has ignored the primary complaint about the greenmarket – its location on the Oval- and opened the door to CW and Rose further exploit the Oval as a commercial and event space, without limit, merely by claiming the activities are limited to “residents and their guests only.”

According to the Council Member, management has agreed to add language to its perimeter sidewalk signs and on any of their materials referencing the market that the market is for “residents and their guests only” and are in the process of correcting any outstanding public references to the market being open to the public. While grownyc has removed the reference to the market being open to the public, it contains a map of the market’s location and a link to management’s website for more information and, as of April 29, one week before the market’s opening, neither that site nor management’s own site has added the language for “residents and their guests only” or any other language that would indicate that it is not open to he public.

During his tenure, Council Member Garodnick has, generally, represented the STPCV community well and has done many good things on behalf of it. His acquiescence in CW and Rose’s charade to continue the presence of the greenmarket on the Oval is not one of them and will only embolden the property’s current mercenary management to create more Oval annoyances, of course, - wink, nod - for “residents and their guests only.”

James J. Roth

James Roth said...

As some of you may know, I am a member of the Board of the TA. I, and, perhaps, some others on the Board, do not agree with the statement on the TA website that the so call "residents and their guests only" restriction is a common sense or reasonable solution to the issue. In my opinion, the common sense and reasonable resolution would have been to move the market to one of the service roads bordering the community, Asser Levy or the northern end of Stuyvesant Cove Park, near Solar One. Any of these locations would be as accessible as and no less convenient than the South end of Oval.

As of this writing, neither the grownyc website nor the pcvst.com site contain the "restricted to residents and their guest" language. But restricting access is not the issue. The issue is that the market is, pure and simple, commercial activity and the Oval is an inappropriate location for it.

Also, I have been reviewing the locations of greenmarkets on the grownyc website, which contains a google map that shows the precise location of the market. So, unless Security is at the entrances to ST checking IDs, as a practical matter, the resident and guests restriction will be unenforceable.

In my letter, I note that the definition of an accessory use includes a requirement that the use is a type that is "clearly incidental" and "customarily found" on the property. In reviewing the locations of the greenmarkets on the grownyc website, it appears that every market, other than the ST market, is located in or adjacent to a public park or on a public street/sidewalk area. Thus, one might question whether a greenmarket in the interior of a private lot such as ST is a use that is "customarily found" on such lots.

Obviously, others have a different opinion regarding the location and accessory use. Council Member Garodnick said that he has discussed this with the Department of Buildings. One might ask if the Buildings Department has explained their rationale in writing or provided a written legal analysis of the issue. If they have, it should be released to the public; if not perhaps they should be requested to do so. In the end, the issue is not whether one likes or dislikes greenmarkets. The issue is whether its location complies with the zoning regulations and, even if it does, whether its location in the heart of the Oval is appropriate.
James Roth

Anonymous said...

Hey STR--

Thanks for your blog. In terms of avoiding extreme statements, etc, much of this would go away if folks could not post anonymously. I suspect many of these comments are just a handful of folks over and over rather than mass anti-Greenmarket sentiment.

Me, I love the Greenmarket and don't think having farmers here for a few hours each week paves the way for Walgreen's on the oval.

Stuy Town Reporter said...

Apparently, it does pave the way for concrete!

Anonymous said...

For those who are interested in hearing a cogent argument in opposition to the Greenmarket remaining on the Oval, here's is James Roth's Letter to the Editor:

To the Editor:

It is unfortunate that Council Member Garodnick has gone along with CW and Rose in sidestepping the zoning rules (and apparently ignoring the “clearly incidental” and “customarily found” requirements found in the Zoning Resolution definition of Accessory Use) to allow the return of the greenmarket to the Oval under the pretense that its availability will be limited to “residents and their guests only,” and the return of food trucks at “special events.” Notably, “special events” are not defined so, presumably, anything that CW and Rose declare to be a special event, perhaps even the greenmarket, will qualify. By agreeing to this pretense, the Council Member has ignored the primary complaint about the greenmarket – its location on the Oval- and opened the door to CW and Rose further exploit the Oval as a commercial and event space, without limit, merely by claiming the activities are limited to “residents and their guests only.”

According to the Council Member, management has agreed to add language to its perimeter sidewalk signs and on any of their materials referencing the market that the market is for “residents and their guests only” and are in the process of correcting any outstanding public references to the market being open to the public. While grownyc has removed the reference to the market being open to the public, it contains a map of the market’s location and a link to management’s website for more information and, as of April 29, one week before the market’s opening, neither that site nor management’s own site has added the language for “residents and their guests only” or any other language that would indicate that it is not open to he public.

During his tenure, Council Member Garodnick has, generally, represented the STPCV community well and has done many good things on behalf of it. His acquiescence in CW and Rose’s charade to continue the presence of the greenmarket on the Oval is not one of them and will only embolden the property’s current mercenary management to create more Oval annoyances, of course, - wink, nod - for “residents and their guests only.”

James J. Roth

Anonymous said...

"In terms of avoiding extreme statements, etc, much of this would go away if folks could not post anonymously."

Going forward, feel free to post under your real name. This way you can be more readily recognized as the champion of the community that you are.

Anonymous said...

Please don't exaggerate. Gravel is a perfectly acceptable landscaping material, it's generally natural and many even sustainble/organic landscapers use it because it isn't permanent and still permits minerals, organisms and oxygen/nitrogen to get released or put into the soil. It's easily brushed away and the pieces that remained are turned into the soil later. It's perfectly fine.

Anonymous said...

It absolutely DOES pave the way for commercialization of the Oval.

We all have different needs and opinions. Let's at least be honest and truthful. I have met many residents who would not care if there were a cvs or a nail salon there.

Anonymous said...

This is James Roth's letter as posted in the 5/3/2012 T&V. I’m sorry, the supporters of the Greenmarket, who seem to live in bubble, never address the main legal issue here which was and is currently, the location of the Greenmarket at the Oval. James also makes some salient points about amenity use and the definition of special events. I totally agree with James’s letter. To those supporters of the Greenmarket at its current location, the Oval,here is your chance to prove where James and I wrong in our logic. Your endless rebuttals to the facts presented on this blog seems to be "Well, I like the Greenmarket". Who doesn’t like a Greenmarket if the product is good and the prices reasonable? Again, for (it seems like) the hundredth time, that is not the issue.

"To the Editor:

It is unfortunate that Council Member Garodnick has gone along with CW and Rose in sidestepping the zoning rules (and apparently ignoring the “clearly incidental” and “customarily found” requirements found in the Zoning Resolution definition of Accessory Use) to allow the return of the greenmarket to the Oval under the pretense that its availability will be limited to “residents and their guests only,” and the return of food trucks at “special events.”

Notably, “special events” are not defined so, presumably, anything that CW and Rose declare to be a special event, perhaps even the greenmarket, will qualify. By agreeing to this pretense, the Council Member has ignored the primary complaint about the greenmarket – its location on the Oval – and opened the door to CW and Rose further exploit the Oval as a commercial and event space, without limit, merely by claiming the activities are limited to “residents and their guests only.”

According to the Council Member, management has agreed to add language to its perimeter sidewalk signs and on any of their materials referencing the market that the market is for “residents and their guests only” and are in the process of correcting any outstanding public references to the market being open to the public. While GrowNYC has removed the reference to the market being open to the public, it contains a map of the market’s location and a link to management’s website for more information and, as of April 29, one week before the market’s opening, neither that site nor management’s own site has added the language for “residents and their guests only” or any other language that would indicate that it is not open to he public.

During his tenure, Council Member Garodnick has, generally, represented the ST/PCV community well and has done many good things on behalf of it. His acquiescence in CW and Rose’s charade to continue the presence of the greenmarket on the Oval is not one of them and will only embolden the property’s current mercenary management to create more Oval annoyances, of course — wink, nod – for “residents and their guests only.”

James J. Roth, PCV"

Anonymous said...

STR - That's a pretty generous interpretation of the language on the B&Y web page.

Anonymous said...

"Gravel is a perfectly acceptable landscaping material"

And ketchup is a vegetable. We know that is true because Ronald Reagan told us so. I wonder what his thoughts were on gravel. I guess we'll never know...

Anonymous said...

Be thankful the gravel isn't white! The new Stuy Town. Gravel dog toilets, paper thin pressure walls and thousands of college kids and transients. There's no place like hell!

Anonymous said...

B&Y doesn't say the market is only for residents...and their "guests." It says:

"The Stuyvesant Town Greenmarket brings fresh food from local farms straight to the doorsteps of Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper Village RESIDENTS."

Morton Williams brings all kinds of food straight to the doorstep of it's 23rd street STORE. But anyone is welcome to shop there.

Same story in the Oval.

Anonymous said...

what on earth is b and y?

Stuy Town Reporter said...

B&Y Farms (www.byfarms.com). They are one of the vendors at the greenmarket.

Anonymous said...

2:29--Hell? This place is hell? What are you kidding?

Anonymous said...

I love that I recently got an email from Council Member Dan Garodnick with the Subject line: "Public Accountability".

Hey, Dan, how about some public accountability of your own? You know, about how you let Management get away with keeping the Greenmarket on the Oval? Tenants concerned about the commercialization of the Oval want to know why you allowed this to happen after you very publically said that you would work with Management to move the Oval to a legal location? The Oval is not a legal location and Greenmarket does not qualify for "accessory use" designation since there is no way to keep the general public out. You owe us an explanation, no?