If you thought that the disappearance of the Joyride food truck this week indicated that the Farmers Market would also be missing this Sunday, as a result of compliance with what the Dept of City Planning and Councilman Garodnick stated weeks ago that such commercial enterprises are not allowed inside Stuy Town--you were wrong! The only thing missing from the photo above is a giant middle finger sign to the city's zoning regulations.
107 comments:
Hmm...perhaps this is why Dan G. chose to take a stroll with his family through Stuy Town yesterday instead of today. See no evil...
Where's weak-as-water Dan G? Would you want someone who can't stand up to the likes of Rose being in charge of City finance? Your taxpayers money? Not me!
Figures. As we've learned, the people that run this place are above the law.
Right, because supporting local farmers selling quality produce is a crime! Call the NYPD swat team so they can pepper spray them. We shall buy only factory farmed chemically induced veggies from the good neighbors at the Associated!
This is the reason I tell people never to move here. Rose and CW do not care about us. All they are interested in is the photo op. To add insult to injury they'll refurbish the area of the oval the green market ruined and slap us with an MCI!
What do the signs taped to the Frankenstein green barriers say?
It really makes little sense to prattle on and on, endlessly bitching when it's obvious that the effort must be taken to complete the next step, which is to challenge Rose Associates on their violation of the zoning law. The DOB must be pressured into taking notice and citing them, if in fact they are in violation of the law. We're beating a dead horse if people don't start COMPLAINING TO THE PROPER AGENCIES.
Honestly, don't blame Dan. You people seriously think any one can stop CW or Rose?
LOL and then ROFL. This city is known for having the highest amount of corruptness.
25 years ago , half my family/friends got rent controlled apartments in some of the best spots in this city. They neither qualified (serious wealth) nor cared that it was fraudulent.
This solidifies my resolve about not voting for Dan Garodnick and I will urge others to do the same.
Feckless Dan and the TA have no power what so ever. Lets see what they do/say about the xmas tree sales. CW and Rose continue to thumb thier nose at Feckless Dan, the TA and the city zoing rules. This is why I will not pay dues to the TA and I will never ever vote for Feckless Dan again.
I've no beef with the Green Market, but its presence now is a slap in the face to Garodnick and Amanda Burden, director of the Dept. of City Planning. There's a quote from the film BILLY JACK which is applicable here: "When the police break the law, there is no law." Shame on CWCapital and Rose Associates. How do they expect tenants to follow their rules if they don't abide by the city's rules?
"Right, because supporting local farmers selling quality produce is a crime! Call the NYPD swat team so they can pepper spray them. We shall buy only factory farmed chemically induced veggies from the good neighbors at the Associated!"
You are ALWAYS missing the point. This isn't about supporting local farmers, but about zoning regulations. The Oval is not zoned for the Farmers Market or any other commercial enterprise. Dan Garodnick has stated he is willing to work with management to place the Farmers Market in a legally zoned area. Why are you so intransigent and not willing to give that a try?
The signs say "By purchasing a $35 organic, artisanal, hydroponic, free range, grass fed apple pie you agree to be filmed and used as a promotional display in the leasing office. Please be under 25 and remember to smile!"
Why is this person more concerned with supporting the local farmers than his / her own community? The property isn't zoned for this stuff. Move to a farm if you want to support local farmers. They could greatly benefit from all your free time.
NO one is going to step up until the tenants step up (GET SOME SERIOUS NEWS COVERAGE) and take some action. The powers that be are busy wiping someone else's ass.
The local farmers and GrowNYC are above the law too otherwise they wouldnt be here. I will NOT support them!!! Get out!!!
Anon November 20, 2011 1:32 PM (et. al.),
Since when did supporting local organic farming become immutably paired with breaking the law?
My guess is that if the growers conducted themselves on their farms in the same illegitimate fashion that they do here in Stuy Town marketing their goods, you wouldn't be so fast to chew on their carrots. And, while you're at it, perhaps you should stop drinking the cool-aid...
Oh yeah!
"Right, because supporting local farmers selling quality produce is a crime! Call the NYPD swat team so they can pepper spray them. We shall buy only factory farmed chemically induced veggies from the good neighbors at the Associated!"
No, but conducting illegal commercial business in a residential zone is a crime. We can't live in a community that selectively enforces the law as it sees fit. If management is allowed to commit one transgression (the greenmarket), others that are increasingly egregious in nature will follow (pay-to-play ice rink). Just because the greenmarket is a relatively benign event, it doesn't make it exempt from the law. If we could all pick and choose which laws we followed, why would any of us have car insurance or choose to pay the fare instead of jumping the turnstile? If they get away with the greenmarket, then the ice rink, is it so far-fetched to imagine summer-long tents on the oval lawn selling who-knows-what? You have to draw the line somewhere, and the law is that line.
I won't let my kids near the ground by the farmers market. I don't want them stepping in the sea food run off and tracking it into the apartment.
Someone remind me, is this New York City or Maine?
It's sad to see how laws in Stuyvesant Town are not being enforced. We had dog laws, furniture dumping laws, bicycle riding laws being continually broken until management cried "Uncle!" and decided to do away with all those laws because they couldn't enforce them, and now management is breaking city laws. What's going on here? Dodge City?
What's going on here? Rose has the spine of a jellyfish and CW Capital wants to drive out long term tenants by creating a year round circus atmosphere. Do you think the young man who peed in the lobby shown on the Lux Living Facebook page cares about the noise? No! He's drunk most of the time and will move out when his rent is increased by $300 next year. Rose and CW want nothing more than to create a turnstile community and so far so good! Enjoy the beets!
They don't hose down after the greenmarket so who knows what we are spreading around the oval. Perhaps Rose and CW know since they are now in the entertainment and food industries. STR time for a new QA with Rosie!
Anon November 20, 2011 3:20 PM,
This has been the strategy of management du Jour since 2006.
Business as usual. They grind on us. We have to grind on them twice as hard. Fortunately there are many more tenants than management employees.
WTG 3:20PM!
Yes! A new Q&A with Rosie. In person! He can rent the Oval Lounge!
Anon November 20, 2011 3:57 PM,
Why would he? No one else does...
I just went to a birthday party at the Oval Lounge.
If you insist on hanging this whole matter on the zoning issue, you will lose. Why aren't you just focusing on the violation of landlord-tenant issues and the clear nuisance violation of the skating rink? If you are going to pit tenant against tenant, there will be an outright ZONING CHANGE and then what? LEAVE IT ALONE and focus on the nuisance and landlord-tenant claims surrounding the ice rink. Stop this fingerwagging over seeming "legalities" of the farmers market because you are not a lawyer and you have NO idea what you are talking about. You are ruining this place and its future by doing this because again, there will be a zoning change if you force this issue.
Lawyers have a bad rep, sometimes for a reason, but this is a case where you would be best served to consult a real practicing lawyer before you screw everything up for the rest of us.
But no, you are going to respond with how "right" you are and how "narcissistic" anyone who disagrees with you is. Yeah, that's a winning strategy. But at least it makes you feel powerful, lol.
Are YOU a lawyer? And, if so, which side are you on?
If it has to come to a zoning battle, so be it. Because, so far, there's been a steady increase in the commercialization happening inside Stuy Town.
Every morning I watch the same crew of men sweep the leaves from the ice skating rink. They sweep and sweep, picking up the leaves day after day. Yet, the hallway floors in my building go un vacuumed, but the leaves in the rink are being swept up every morning. The molding on the hallways walls are covered with dust, but the leaves in the rink are being swept up every morning.
The laundry room is filthy but the leaves in the rink are being swept up every morning. There are always broken laundry machines, but the leaves in the rink are being swept up every morning. The garbage overflows onto the floor in the recycling area, but they sweep the leaves up from the skating rink every morning. There are mice in my building, and they sweep the leaves up every morning from the rink every morning.
Does anyone see a problem here? Does the TA not see a problem here? Does Feckless Dan not see a problem here?
" Stop this fingerwagging over seeming "legalities" of the farmers market because you are not a lawyer and you have NO idea what you are talking about. You are ruining this place and its future by doing this because again, there will be a zoning change if you force this issue."
I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the tie-in between the argument over the legality of commercial activities and nuisance from noise, etc. The reason why Stuyvesant Town isn't zoned for commercial activity was to protect the original 1948 tenants from one day having a restaurant or chain store 50 feet from their bedroom window, and to preserve the integrity of what was constructed to be a quiet, peaceful oasis. The point has always been, and always will be, the nuisance of these activities to people who live in close proximity to where they are set up within the property. The law is designed to prevent those nuisances from taking place.
"But no, you are going to respond with how "right" you are and how "narcissistic" anyone who disagrees with you is. Yeah, that's a winning strategy. But at least it makes you feel powerful, lol."
The fact is, the "right" side of this argument is the lawful side. You don't need to be a lawyer or have attended law school to have a basic understanding of what a zoning law is and the protections it affords. Whether you argue against these commercial events for reasons of legality or nuisance matters little. Either is valid.
Please don't consider it a victory when the farmer's market is gone in December. They're season is done at the end of this month. I think your efforts would be better directed to stopping the ice rink. Get that under your belt and then go after the market after the first of the year.
Also, will there be a protest on the first day the ice rink is open? I do plan to bring the kiddies to skate but won't cross a picket line.
What side am I on?
On the side of the Farmers Market. Certainly not yours, and definitely not on Rose's. You managed to screw up this whole thing and drive away supporters by focusing on ridiculousness. You're kind of like republicans who campaign against Gay Marriage. Who but the most ignorant is going to rally around that?
But no matter what side the more rational folks are on, the ignorant ideologues like you and the right wingers destroy the whole country.
Oh, and yes, to answer your question, yes, I am a lawyer who used to practice administrative law, i.e., zoning issues. I will never help you in your quest to get rid of things like the farmer market or the coffee truck.
I will also never help Rose on almost anything, but I know enough to know that if they want commercial zoning, and they divide and conquer thanks to your ridiculous blindness to anything that is different than your childhood here, they will win.
So please, you are missing an opportunity to actually and finally stop the rink by focusing on the landlord tenant issues. But you don't actually publish posts of people who disagree with you.
Counter to the wishes of some posting on this site, all the legitimate bitching and moaning makes it clear that the only real chance of achieving responsible, resident friendly management of the complex is through self-ownership. Corporate owners will always have a single motivation - profit at all and any cost. This means an ever more commercialized, expanding, pressure walled, short stay dormitory. There is no benign corporation waiting in the wings to rescue the place and return it to the good old days, that dream ended when Metlife took the money and ran.
I love Dan G and will definitely vote for him as comptroller. I just took a screen shot of my post and will send this to him if you continue to ignore opposing posts and will tell him I tried to post this and you wouldn't. You will lose all credibility if you don't at least post all opinions.
You are actually doing this community a disservice and destroying tenant credibility on real issues with this biased and censored reporting. Please post all but the most profane and harassing of opinions. It just makes the tenants look unreasonable and desperate by association.
We have over 60 years of precedent on the side of residential zoning. Mr. Lawyer is clearly trying to preserve the green market even after it's been explained ad infinitum how you can't have your cake and eat it too. Newsflash Mr. Lawyer, there are way more tenants concerned with preserving the quality of life in ST/PCV than there are people interested in a fresh carrot. But good luck with your misinformation campaign and trying to spread fear so you can achieve your own self satisfying agenda. I for one won't buy in to your BS.
The guy is intransigient because he is an idiot.
If he can't get Rose and CW to obey the law or get the Buildings Department to enforce it, whta kind of a controller would Dan be?
Oh the horror!!! Today was the last day of the farmers market and the Joyride truck has closed up shop for the season. Wherever will tenants find produce and caffiene now? They may have to walk into the neighborhood!!! I hope there is a tribute in lights this holiday season for these tortured souls!!! Oh the humanity!!! Shopping in the gritty New York City!!!
"I love Dan G and will definitely vote for him as comptroller. I just took a screen shot of my post and will send this to him if you continue to ignore opposing posts and will tell him I tried to post this and you wouldn't. You will lose all credibility if you don't at least post all opinions."
I post all opinions unless they are outright insulting (toward any side, even toward management) or obvious trollery and continued trollery. Sorry, but most posters here are against commercialization in Stuy Town.
BTW, I let the "idiot" comment through because at this point you still don't get it and haven't gotten it after it's been explained to you over and over again. The way Stuy Town is zoned we can't pick and choose which commercial activity we want here. This is so obvious that I don't know why you are trying to draw the focus away from the commercialization of Stuy Town and solely to the rink. The rink is a direct result of the acceptance of commercialization in Stuy Town.
Stuy Town Reporter - just want to say thank you for this blog and all your hard work and thank you for helping concerned tenants fight the good fight.
You're doing a terric job. Keep up the great work and try not to let the idiots and willfully ignorant posters on here get you down. A lot of us have your back.
I'm glad you are a lawyer. So is Dan Garodnick. He's a councilman, too, and has stated that he expects CW Capital and Rose Associates to obey the zoning laws in Stuy Town.
Thanks, Fed Up Tenant. It's appreciated.
BTW, it's one guy, Mr. Lawyer, and possibly one other person, posting over and over again, and sending me some pretty nasty personal messages too.
I don't entirely get Mr. Self-Described Lawyer's argument. A perfectly good law is in place to get the rink and other commercial uses stopped. We can make the nuisance argument, too. But to me the point is to stop these intrusions altogether because there will always be one that some people want and there's no way to pick and choose.
Also, will there be a protest on the first day the ice rink is open? I do plan to bring the kiddies to skate but won't cross a picket line.
- Anon, November 20, 2011 8:00PM
Even if there is no picket line, please do NOT patronize the skating rink. If you refrain from using it, you will be showing your support and concern for your fellow tenants who live around the rink and are going to be so adversely affected by this terrible, 3-month long intrusion into their daily lives.
And, if your children ask you why you're not taking them skating, use this golden opportunity to teach them a lesson about community and sticking together and not letting the bad guys win.
There's only one way tenants can have control over our destiny. But it aint going to happen and most of the residents don't even want it to.
Sorry to be so negative, but the battle is pretty much lost guys. :(( We're so NOT getting the old pcvst back.
Where has Dan Garodnick been hiding the past few weeks? He was big and bold for a while.
Now on the eve of this rink travesty he's AWOL! All talk...NO action!
If the law states this is area is not zoned for commercial activities, then how can commercial activities continue?
Very simple question. C'mon Dan. It's time to really step up.
Anon November 21, 2011 11:43 AM,
Dan was in the Oval over the weekend. I saw him there so he must have come face to face with the great beast! I can't say if he looked the other way but, if his eyes were open, I'm sure he saw what's going on. Would be great to hear more from him on the topic, tho.
Anon November 21, 2011 11:21 AM,
Tenants still have a shot at "controlling our own destiny." First step was getting TS to bust out. Next step is getting CW to bust out--or, at least, getting them to take a significant haircut on their bonds. If that happens, a purchase by tenants could make sense and could happen. The question is: how much is CW losing each year running the place and how much longer are they willing to accept those losses? I don't have an answer to either question but I truly believe there is a squeal point to both of those figures.
While the market and the truck may be gone for the winter, it does not mean that we have seen the last of them given the Rose/CW record or contempt for the law and the residents of the property. Those of us concerned about the commercialization of the interior of the community need to be keeping the pressure on by asking Dan Garodnick and the Tenants Association Board what steps they are taking to ensure that the zoning law is enforced so that these operations do not return.
Note that this promotional video was added a mere five days ago. Illegal or not, they'd never waste an opportunity to make another ridiculous video pimping "amenities" to prospective tenants. http://www.youtube.com/user/pcvstrose#p/u/0/UspaMDnyVZs
You don't need to be a lawyer or have attended law school to have a basic understanding of what a zoning law is and the protections it affords.
That is simply not true. In fact, NYC zoning regs are confusing enough that developers, contractors, architects, owners, and builders regularly employ specialty law firms to make sure that they are in compliance with existing regs. And to secure zoning, land use and other regulatory relief when they don't. You do know what a zoning variance is, right, Anonymous @ November 20, 2011 7:50 PM?
The proprietor of this blog, and most all of the commentariat, do not want to hear what a commenter who claims to be an attorney regularly has to say here: that we may not be on firm legal ground fighting CW Capital and Rose over the ice rink on zoning grounds. That there may be more effective avenues to take in dealing with the rink. Please forget the guy's tone, what if he's right? Dan G gets regularly flamed on this site for not running what could very well be a fool's errand and I find that really disturbing.
We all have a right to be angry about what's been done to ST-PCV, but we can't let anger cloud our judgment or the rink is here to stay. What I am suggesting is that a careful weighing of options should be considered before we begin demanding that our elected reps and the TA take a particular course of action.
Finally, the commenter I'm referring to also suggests that taking on the Green Market could very well divide tenants. With that I'm in complete agreement. The evidence is right in this thread. Bundling in the Green Market with the wildly unpopular ice rink is just a REALLY bad strategy.
RR, if you are correct, one must assume that both the director of the Department of City Planning and Dan Garodnick (a lawyer himself, with a staff around to help him) do not know what they are stating regarding the zoning of commercial enterprises here, of which food trucks and the Green Market were specifically mentioned.
Regarding the "bundling" you mention, it is not the tenants who have selected this bundling, but (it appears) the law.
RR,
I was ready to give you props until you made the greenmarket comment. C'mon, man. You can walk a few more blocks for your veggies! The law is the law.
STR, I'm with you on this one.
Looks like Mr. Roundly scares easily. 60 years of history means nothing here ?
"In fact, NYC zoning regs are confusing enough that developers, contractors, architects, owners, and builders regularly employ specialty law firms to make sure that they are in compliance with existing regs. And to secure zoning, land use and other regulatory relief when they don't. You do know what a zoning variance is, right, Anonymous @ November 20, 2011 7:50 PM?"
So RR, then why was/is it obvious to anyone who understands the difference between a residential or commercial zone that these activities were in violation of the law? The Oval is clearly in the residential zone. What's so complicated about that?
STR
Then why is the market still operating? Because there is some next step that is necessary to have the rules enforced?
That step is court, right? And as the other poster mentioned, that step is costly and not necessarily a slam dunk win for tenants. In addition, rulings can be appealed, variances granted. Not to mention the fact that you'd be expecting our elected rep and the TA to go to court to close an outdoor market that may be a pretty popular thing with a lot of tenants. THAT is bad politics.
Anonymous @ November 23, 2011 3:02 PM
Thanks for the nasty comment, but I do shop the Union Square Greenmarket every Wed and Sat, and have shooped ours only once because prices are slightly higher at ours. This may be difficult for some people to grasp, but not all support or lack of support is based on self-interest.
Anonymous @ November 23, 2011 3:09 PM
Why the nasty potshot? I've lived here since 1981 and I oppose any commercialization of the Oval. Period. What I'm "afraid of" is that we may be going at this half-assed. The legal eagles on this blog have apparently forgotten that Mike Bloomberg is still the mayor, whose DOB still does his bidding. So don't expect the DOB to automatically rule in our favor. And don't forget that zoning rulings can be appealed before the Board of Standards and Appeals, which is in the business of granting of special permits for modifying zoning regs and issuing variances. That's what big landlords keep real estate attorney's around for...
Anonymous @ November 23, 2011 3:48 PM
Nothing in life is complicated when everything is black and white, but hardly anything in life is ever black and white, especially the law and NYC zoning regulations. It's all in the interpretation.
I don't disagree that there probably is an extra step, or more steps, needed to see the enforcement of what the Dept of City Planning and Garodnick stated regarding the Farmers Market. What gets me is that the powers that be, knowing what the law is now (assuming that the Dept of City Planning and Garodnick know what they are talking about) are using a delay tactic and saying FU to the law. I guess it's within the right of anyone to be that sleazy, but it does leave a bad aftertaste.
Let's keep something in mind, folks: we don't live in a real democracy, we live in an oligarchy. Big business, wether it's AIG, Lehman, Goldman Sachs, Tishman Speyer, Bank of America, et al, and our own beloved little Rose and CWCap, all fund our politicians and our politicians, from Obama down to Dan G, and there is nothing we can do about it. It's just a fact. Unless we can get campaign finance laws change and vote these creatures out, we are stuck with the status quo for ever. Even voting isn't really a way to get things changed because you have the likes of Bloomberg who can override the voters wishes on term limits (twice voted in favor of, remember) and simply steamroller his corrupt lackies in City Hall and BUY his illegal third term. I don't We The People have a snowflake in hell's chance against the Almighty Oligarchy.
RR, we're not going about anything "half assed", we're TRYING to get the attention of those in position to address this to do something. So far, we've shaken the tree and gotten some attention. Now we see what the next step is. And I don't buy into the paranoia of zoning variances and re-zoning. Stuyvesant Oval was commercial free since 1947, and was developed to be just that. Changing that zoning means a radical change to the character and use of the area, and I sincerely doubt that any zoning board would approve such a change, Bloomberg or no Bloomberg. But I guess we'll have to wait and see what testimony arises at the zoning board hearing, won't we ?. I bet that will be a big rallying point for the Tenants Association.
Oh.. and BTW Roger, you're incredibly thin-skinned. The posts that were made in this thread disagreed with you and possibly were somewhat sarcastic, but nowhere did anyone take a "shot" at you.
Definitely not a democracy here. Only going to get worse. Be ready.
"Definitely not a democracy here. Only going to get worse. Be ready."
This has been the mood since the sale to Tishman-Speyer, but the fact is that unless people are willing to stand up and be heard, the rich and powerful will prevail. We do live in a democracy (despite cynical proclamations by some), and our legal system is not stacked on the side of injustice. If the residents of Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper are truly dissatisfied with their quality of life, then they need to speak up and take action.
STR
If (1) you're not exactly sure what is involved in getting zoning regs enforced. Then (2) you're also not exactly sure of the probability of success in going the zoning route to stop the rink.
Time's short. I'm repeating myself but my suggestion would be to do some homework. Maybe zoning is a perfectly effective route (I really don't know), but then again...There may be easier, better routes to take to shut down the rink.
This has been the mood since the sale to Tishman-Speyer, but the fact is that unless people are willing to stand up and be heard, the rich and powerful will prevail. We do live in a democracy (despite cynical proclamations by some), and our legal system is not stacked on the side of injustice. If the residents of Stuyvesant Town and Peter Cooper are truly dissatisfied with their quality of life, then they need to speak up and take action.
We are trying, but it is getting us nowhere. We live under a corrupt oligarchy and getting rid of them is like getting bubble gum out of your hair. Ever tried that?
TRYING to get the attention of those in position to address this to do something.
I agree with you 100%. We SHOULD be telling our elected reps what we absolutely don't want a for-pay ice rink in the Oval. Where we disagree is that I don't think we should be dictating to them HOW to go about making that happen.
Changing that zoning means a radical change to the character and use of the area
True indeed. And so you assume that changing it, or issuing a variance, would be somewhere on the scale from not likely to inpossible. But your assumption is based on what exactly? Are you a lawyer?
The only commenter here claiming to have legal experience in the area of zoning regulation says we will lose by going that route.
Oh.. and BTW Roger, you're incredibly thin-skinned.
I don't post on this ST site very often, so you probably don't know me very well.
"Time's short. I'm repeating myself but my suggestion would be to do some homework. Maybe zoning is a perfectly effective route (I really don't know), but then again...There may be easier, better routes to take to shut down the rink."
I don't think that doing more homework has anything to do with the average tenant, which includes me. We have representatives (Garodnick, the TA), with legal counsel, that should be more active in the homework department.
Regarding the rink, I only see two possibilities open for those who wish to shut it down: 1) zoning, and 2) noise. It may take a while, but the rink is scheduled to stay open for three months.
"The only commenter here claiming to have legal experience in the area of zoning regulation says we will lose by going that route."
I would NOT place too much value in that opinion.
STR
Sorry but you run a blog that reaches I don't know how many ST-PCV readers, so that makes you a person of some influence. I applaud you for making the rink an issue. I just wish you had stopped there.
STR
Just because you only see 2 possibilities for shutting down the rink doesn't leave us only 2 possibilities. That's why God created elected reps. You and others have stated the goal: no ice rink. Now let's let the legal eagles come up with the best way (or ways) to achieve that goal.
"Regarding the rink, I only see two possibilities open for those who wish to shut it down: 1) zoning, and 2) noise. It may take a while, but the rink is scheduled to stay open for three months."
The music isn't going to last all three months. I for one am not going to stand for amplified music in my apartment until 8 pm every night (and as an added insult, until 9pm on Christmas day). It's a clear violation of my lease which says I'm entitled to the quiet enjoyment of my home. It's bad enough putting up with those summer concerts, but at least that's just once a week. This is going to supposedly be every day. Enough people, myself included, will call 311 and the music will be scrapped. Anybody who thinks the music is a good idea, I'd like to know if the rink is literally within tennis-ball-toss distance from your bedroom window (as it is mine).
Yes, we are trying (above comment). Do you not know that? WE ARE TRYING. Getting us nowhere. Rink open tomorrow right? lovely
"You and others have stated the goal: no ice rink."
That's not my goal, actually. I have no problem with a rink, as long as it's not a commercial venture using previously free playground space and a noise pollutant.
"I don't post on this ST site very often, so you probably don't know me very well."
Not as "Roger Roundly," anyway. Or is that "Roundly Roger?" Or various "don't touch the greenmarket" anons.
Seems to me Mr. Roundly makes some well thought-out, measured, even-handed points. Why all the shrieking hand-wringing from the readership? Apparently, if one doesn't speak in the same group-speak, one is now the enemy? Somehow, shooting yourselves in the feet would appear to be a poor long-term strategy. Plus, it'll make putting on your ice-skates at the (SOON TO BE) free rink (STR, you KNEW that RR meant "for-fee," in this one comment where he didn't spell it out. Tsk!) so much harder. Tenants, try CONSIDERING other opinions. Options make you more lean & supple...when dealing with the weasels at CWC (the REAL enemy, not Dan, the TA, etc.) these can ONLY be helpful.
I used shorthand. Considering the context of the thread and my earlier use of the term for-pay ice rink, I thought that would be understood. So please allow me to amend my earlier comment:
STR
Just because you only see 2 possibilities for shutting down the rink doesn't leave us only 2 possibilities. That's why God created elected reps. You and others have stated the goal: no commercial ice rink. Now let's let the legal eagles come up with the best way (or ways) to achieve that goal.
I see they're sending out emails announcing the ice skating rink. It opens tomorrow and will be up and running from 9 am to 9 pm. I am SO BLOODY GLAD I don't live in one of those apartments within earshot of this thing. I hope the people who live in those buildings call 311 or, better yet, go out there and make a scene. This is a total outrage. Maybe we should get up a bus trip to Adam Rose's house and blast "rink music" for 12 hours at a stretch.
"Seems to me Mr. Roundly makes some well thought-out, measured, even-handed points. Why all the shrieking hand-wringing from the readership? Apparently, if one doesn't speak in the same group-speak, one is now the enemy?"
How do you deduce that I consider RR an enemy, because I certainly don't?
NO need to get defensive, STR. I referred specifically to the flaming from the readership ("Why all the shrieking hand-wringing from the readership?")
My aside to you was merely that you conveniently chose to ignore the no-fee status he'd referred to repeatedly. Nope...the across the board attacks & flaming that occur, no matter WHO raises ANYTHING divergent from their lockstep points (on all topics), comes consistently from the commenters. You graciously provide a forum for discussion. Problem being (& here's why I think Lux shit down his first site) the apparent inability for many readers to engage in civil adult dialogue. It's that "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY" cultishness that probably keeps your page views & participation somewhat suppressed.
Posting anonymously (yeah, I do it too!) lends a sense of false bravado that allows name-calling & nastiness that only dilutes seriousness the real issues (i.e. Dan G. is a hero ONLY if he's drunk all the same Kool Aid. When he attempts to explore other options, like legally relocating the Market, he's eviscerated.) If there's a good chance of a zoning variance, then why NOT explore more concrete, easily proven violations? But no, the cranks have seized the floor, allowing no reasonable exploration of our options. "You're either wid us or agin us" seems to be the rallying battle cry. Unfortunately, good points get lost when one hears only the whining, bullying, and cat-calling. Grow up people! There's a wealth of wisdom in our community; to drive it from view (and access) is to hand the victory to the violators. Seems to be a really foolish strategy to me.
"When he attempts to explore other options, like legally relocating the Market, he's eviscerated."
This hasn't happened here. I, and others, have mentioned the possibility of a legal relocation without giving Garodnick any flack. We approve of such a LEGAL relocation, in fact.
@ Anonymous @ November 25, 2011 3:00 PM
Not as "Roger Roundly," anyway. Or is that "Roundly Roger?" Or various "don't touch the greenmarket" anons.
(1) I could give two shits about the GreenMarket. (2) I don't post here often, but when I do, it's ALWAYS as Roger Roundly. Period. An explanation is not owed you, but I buried Roundly Roger with the retirement of the blog, Lux Living.
And if you want to have a dialogue with me, please adopt a screen name instead of using Anonymous -- it's MUCH easier to carry on a civil conversation that way. That is, if civil conversation is what you're interested in.
These are people who open other people's garbage to find receipts to take photos and post here and send to management. You think anyone would give their name here? These are very very mean and spiteful people here. They don't even trust each other. I can compare them to a certain other kind of "resident" in history, who hated their "landlord" but turned in their fellow residents to curry favor for extra scraps.
I would settle for a scrap of decency from this place but I'm not holding my breath.
Sorry if someone posted a picture of the garbage you left in the lobby. Next time, take your name off of the box first or, better yet, dispose of it properly.
"But no matter what side the more rational folks are on, the ignorant ideologues like you and the right wingers destroy the whole country."
Then leave. Europe used to think like you but they have started to see the light as their countries are destroyed by the very liberal policies you want. They are headed back to Conservatism to save their asses. Albeit possibly too late. Liberal idealogues like you have ruined this city and are trying to ruin the whole US. However, they will be stopped in the next election. This issue has nothing to do with either idealogue but idiots like you try and turn everything around to politics and blame the right wing. Well from one former Democrat I can tell you your in for a big shock come November!
"These are people who open other people's garbage to find receipts to take photos and post here and send to management."
Excuse me, but I don't recall EVER seeing that kind of thing on this blog. I think you have your blogs mixed up. STR has never, ever exhibited anybody's name or "outed" anyone in that vicious manner. I think you owe STR an apology.
I'm referring to the many anonymous posters: You all are so petty and vicious--it wasn't me, to the one who fell right into the role I describe--I use the chute and follow the rules. But I have seen the same people here, based on their posts, sending photos to Lux (and to STR, though he may have had a bit more grace than to actually post them, I can't be sure), and tattling to management. THAT I have heard several of you brag of.
Gross and pathetic, really, but hence the atmosphere of anonymity: No one here trusts anyone and will turn on each other so fast if it suits their personal interest. It's like the Warsaw ghetto here and you folks are self-appointed Judenrat.
I don't get those photos, but I agree with the principle. If someone is consistently making a building a pig sty, then tenants have to be pro-active.
Unless you or someone you love was actually in the Warsaw Ghetto, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about you stupid ass. Why don't you just shut the fuck up. Don't trivialize the Warsaw Ghetto to try to get your point across because you don't like this forum. People prefer to stay anonymous because of nut jobs like you. Give me your name and I'll give you mine.
"These are people who open other people's garbage to find receipts to take photos and post here and send to management."
Excuse me, but I don't recall EVER seeing that kind of thing on this blog. I think you have your blogs mixed up. STR has never, ever exhibited anybody's name or "outed" anyone in that vicious manner. I think you owe STR an apology.
It was not STR; Lux Living posted it on his Facebook page and I was DELIGHTED that he did!
I am one of those tenants who opens other tenants garbage bags and outs them to Management. I shouldn't have to do this, but I am sick and tired of the pigs and slobs who live in my building crapping it up by DEPOSITING THEIR MEGA GALLON GARBAGE BAGS FULL OF FOOD IN THE RECYCLING ROOM DESPITE PROMINANT SIGNS TELLING THEM NOT TOO and creating unsanitary conditions because they are too LAZY and SELFISH and ENTITLED to follow the rules here, use the chute on their floor like they are supposed to and behave in a considerate, thoughtful manner.
As for being vicious, what's vicious is the behavior of those people who dump their garbage where they KNOW they shouldn't. I think that it's entirely appropriate - though unfortunate that it's now up to tenants to police their own buildings - to take pictures and out these lazy, selfish slobs and I would love to see an online Wall of Shame where these narcissistic jerks can be outed in a very public way. May be a public shaming will get them to stop. Until then, I will be taking photos and emailing them to Management so Management can fire off nasty legal letters telling these creeps to stop their despicable behavior. Don't want to be outed? Don't want to be shamed? DON'T DO THE BEHAVIOR!
Ohhh, Johnny in 5C included his chinese leftovers in the trash bag he put in the recycling area....let's search through the bag for evidence and photograph it and send it to the SS, I mean, Rose and maybe we'll get future brownie points.
You people are making this place as unpleasant as Rose. But in a way, shame on me for even visiting this site, let alone trying to reason with you. I wish we had a more reasonable, modern and era-appropriate group of people to advocate on all of our behalf and work with to create a happy community. I certainly don't want to align with management, but I can't choose to work with you folks. I just don't like the direction you are taking this community either. There's a grimness and lack of life I just can't stomach. Just as grim as the way you portray Rose's vision, which on a few things, I'd agree, but I can't have you speaking for me.
You be creepy...ew.
I bet you are PERFECT and have never had the TV too loud or did aerobics or failed to scrub EVERY SPECK of food off your recycling! You are an stellar example for EVERY resident and so you can tell everyone else how to live their life since you have never done anything wrong, or hurt the environment or animals or people.
And to RR, THIS is why everyone posts anonymously. This one would send every post to Rose as some sort of example of our danger to the community. "Look, she admitted to wearing heels on wood floors!!!"
These are weak-minded and unreasonable people here.
Ohhh, Johnny in 5C included his chinese leftovers in the trash bag he put in the recycling area....
Well, you've just proved yourself to be one of the ignoramuses who craps up this place!
BAGS FULL OF TRASH DO NOT GO IN THE RECYCLING AREA! FOOD GARBAGE DOES NOT GO IN THE RECYCLING AREA! THEY GO DOWN THE CHUTE ON YOUR FLOOR!
Ohhh, Johnny in 5C included his chinese leftovers in the trash bag he put in the recycling area....let's search through the bag for evidence and photograph it and send it to the SS, I mean, Rose and maybe we'll get future brownie points.
Rose doesn't give a crap about how bad these slobs are, so "outing" the doesn't matter to Rose. Nobody gets brownie points for anything because Rose isn't interested in how filthy and unsanitary the buildings are. They would rather not hear about it because they have much more important stuff to take care of. They have an ice skating rink to run, remember! And, btw, your nasty references to the agony of the Holocaust are in the very worst of taste and highlight what a totally ignorant and obnoxious jackass you are.
Again, you are creepy and weird. I already said I throw my garbage down the chute, but look at how creepy and accusatory you react--you are a paranoid sanctimonious twit. I would NEVER search through a garbage bag in hopes of finding just what I am looking for, evidence to use against your neighbors. THAT IS CREEPY.
Not to mention, I am quite sure that at some point in your years here, you have accidentally put food waste in the same bag as your other "trash" or otherwise have done something else not absolutely perfect. Your finger pointing is weird and you know it. Move on with your life--go plant flowers instead of searching through other people's garbage.
I used to think you folks were crazy...
...until I rode down in the elevator with my neighbor this morning. Nice, quiet guy. Married, etc.
Enters the car with a HUGE freaking white plastic bag of trash. Taking it to the basement.
Where do these people come from? Are they afraid to open up the little door in the hall to see what's behind the hopper?
It must be a genetic deficiency affecting the under 35 (maybe under 30...) crowd since they seem to be the only ones dragging huge bags of crap down to the basement.
We have running water so we don't have to go to the well with a bucket.
We have indoor plumbing so we don't have to use an outhouse.
And we have a garbage chute so we don't have to haul our trash to the basement! Just put it in a Gristedes bag, walk ten paces to the chute and be done with it.
Now I know what the mice are eating downstairs. My apologies to all of you whom I have doubted in the past.
I bet you are PERFECT and have never had the TV too loud or did aerobics or failed to scrub EVERY SPECK of food off your recycling! You are an stellar example for EVERY resident and so you can tell everyone else how to live their life since you have never done anything wrong, or hurt the environment or animals or people.
What does your idiotic rant have to do with putting your food and non-recyclable garbage down the chute on your floor? Short of having a chute right in your apartment, it could not be any easier to properly dispose of your garbage. Decent tenants have been doing so here since this place was built many, many decades ago.
There are now RODENTS in my building because tenants are dumping their food garbage in the recycling area. We NEVER had these kinds of problems in the past. EVER. It is because of selfish, spoiled people like you with your it's-all-about-me-to-hell-with-you attitude that we now have so many of the problems we have. But, who can talk to the likes of people like you with your willful ignorance, stupidity and your narciscism?!
And we have a garbage chute so we don't have to haul our trash to the basement! Just put it in a Gristedes bag, walk ten paces to the chute and be done with it.
Now I know what the mice are eating downstairs. My apologies to all of you whom I have doubted in the past.
I was going down the elevator recently and in came a young woman with a HUGE garbage bag. Horrified, I asked her where she was going with the bag, although I already knew the answer. I tried to tell her nicely that she should not be dumping her food garbage in the recycling area and she said that her HUGE garbage bag wouldn't fit down the chute on her floor. I nicely explained that if she used the free, small bags she got when food shopping, those bags would fit down the chute. Her response to me was, "that's not convenient for me."
So, there you have it. That's who we have living here now. A bunch of young, selfish, self-involved, thoughtless, could-care-less, narcissistic people who won't be staying here long and feel absolutely no investment in this community, so they don't care what kind of chaos they create now or leave behind in their wake.
I bet you told her! And I bet you knew exactly what was in that bag!
Anon November 26, 2011 6:05 PM,
So I'm not the only one with such an experience!
As a bit of follow-up, the wife is a total ditz, and the pipsqueak husband had this look on his face (as he held the bag of trash that was almost bigger than he) that just screamed "I'm a total putz and I know it."
Of course...what else would you expect?
I once confronted one of the twentysomethings in my building who was lugging a big stinky white trash bag full of food waste down to the basement. I very nicely and politely reminded him that the reason we have mice and roaches lurking near the recycling area was because people dump food there when it should be going into the compactor. His response? "Chill out, bro." I think that pretty much sums up the attitude of the majority of the younger tenants.
greenmarket has been around for at least three if not four years now. why did it take so long to bring it up as an issue? the tenants assn is asleep and has generally failed to bring the community together in any sort of cohesive way that would create a sufficient force to reckon with the likes of tishman and adam rose. I grew up here and moved back just in time to get a market rate apt. I actually like the greenmarket and the rink. would I prefer to have less dog poop and better security? absolutely. but sadly there isn't anyone to represent the collective interests of the tenants anymore.
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